You don't stop dancing because you've grown old. You grow old because you've stopped dancing.
- apologies to G.B. Shaw

Special Announcement

November 4, 1999: At the ALHC in Stamford last weekend, two meetings were held to discuss: The Formation of an American Lindy Hop Organization and The World Rock & Roll Confederation/World Lindy Hop Competition and its Rules

The minutes from each of those meetings are being edited and will be distributed in DRAFT FORM to the meeting attendees within the next few days for corrections. Once corrections have been made, the minutes will be posted on the same three websites that host the debate archives and distributed to other web sites around the world. See "Mirror Archive Sites" below.

If you would like to receive a copy of the completed minutes, with a list of action items recommended at each of the meetings, send your name and email address to me at:

Also, Nathalie Gomes will host a very important meeting next Monday, November 8th to discuss continuing plans for World Lindy Hop and American Lindy Hop Competitions. The meeting will begin at NOON. Location will be announced in the next 24 hours.

If you feel you have constructive input to offer (no cat fighting allowed) :), and would like to receive an invitation, please send email to the same email address as above.

Finally, recommendations were made at the ALHC meetings to form an exploritory committee to investigate the possibility of establishing a US-based, or North American based, Lindy Hop Organization. Volunteers signed up to participate on the committee at the ALHC meeting. In the interest of being inclusive of as many swing dance communities in North America as is possible, if you have recommendations for appropriate people to serve on this committee, or if you would like to volunteer yourself... please send email to:

World Lindy Hop Championship Debate

Last updated, Thur, Nov 4, 1999

September 24, 1999: A debate took place between Ryan Francois, Marcus Koch, Nathalie Gomes and others concerning the governance of the World Lindy Hop Championships, November 7, 1999, in New York City.

The following material is a collection of messages either sent to me to be posted here for public inspection or posted to public discussion boards around the US and gathered here to complete the body of communications between the parties. This information is provided in the hopes of helping every concerned party to develop a better understanding of what is going on.

The material posted here is the most complete discussion of this debate that I have found with the exception of two cases:

1. occasional "one-liners" and "quips" that I have chosen not to include for lack of substance.
2. a few unusually angry messages that contributed no useful discussion to the debate that I have chosen to omit

If you have any additional information to contribute that can help all of us to better understand the issues at hand, please email it to me at and I will do my best to get it posted here as quickly as possible. Also, if you have corrections to the following material that can be validated, please forward that info to me as well. Thanks.

Please recognize that I have posted this page in an effort to prevent damaging rumors and convey factual information to the Lindy Hop communities worldwide. I am not interested in arguing with anyone about this issue. I am trying to understand the issues and help us all to affect positive changes. If you want to argue, please do that on your neighborhood discussion board - don't send flames to me.

Finally, I would like to encourage you to read this material carefully and peer down below the surface of the arguments to listen carefully to the issues being debated. You may not feel that these debates affect you or your dance community now, but the outcomes will affect the future of the American-born, grass-roots art form we all know and love as Lindy Hop.

Then, when you've read enough... A one, a two, you know a what to do!  :  )

Spin Doctor

Mirror Archive Sites:

Most (or all) of the material found here, and some additional material, can also be found on Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen's web site at http://www.swinginhepcats.com and at Alan Sugarman's web site at http://www.swingout-ny.com Thanks Wendy and Alan for your hard work in helping to archive this important debate. May the thoughts expressed here encourage us all to become more critical thinkers and work harder at nurturing the beautiful dance form that we all love so much.

I had hoped to add an Index to this page some time ago, but life got in the way. There have been no updates to this page since November 1999. I do not plan to add anything to this page since the '99 debates are over. If new developments occur I may start a new archive.

If you submit additional information please provide a traceable source. I will publish all information, and email addresses of sources, that can be verified. But in the interest of clarity, good communication between our worldwide Lindy Hop communities, and in an effort to not proliferate rumors, I will be reluctant to publish untraceable materials or information of dubious nature.

Ryan's Original Message
As broadcast to numerous mail lists around the world. It was this letter that brought world-wide attention to the debate.

Confirmed From: Ryan Francois MrZoots@aol.com

Sep 18, 1999

A few years ago the World Lindy Federation was founded much to the dismay of the main Lindy community of the time. at first it's goals were well intended but it had no support from anyone who would be considered to be the main core of the Swing revival - myself included - therefore it didn't quite work.

This left an open door for the World R & R federation spearheaded by Marcus Koch to attempt to take over the Lindy Fed and impose their rules and regulations into the dance form. this included standardising the movements and dictating to teachers how they should be taught so that we did the exact same things. The pure among us found this to be an intolerable idea. A dance based on improvisation standardised? Worse still owned by a federation who were not even Lindy Hoppers!

There were many other reasons for Marcus and his Federation to get their fingers on the Lindy but these already were enough. This caused uproar in Europe and after many a heated discussion the World Lindy federation was disbanded. And supposedly forgotten about. Now the scene in America and across the globe hadn't established itself at this time, so they were no doubt blissfully unaware of the rumblings in

Europe which made it a perfect place to Start a World Championships run by the World R & R fed picking a continent ignorant of its prior shady dealings which is exactly what they did in Europe before the idea was destroyed.

So all I can say is beware, this is a venture born of self interest not for the good of the dance. I have never spoke out before about anything but on this I am adamant. This is BAD for Lindy Hop Take care Ryan You can circulate this message if you wish to whomever you wish, I'm not afraid of my statement.

Ryan Francois

Additional Details from Ryan
As posted by Robert Casey rgcasey@avana.netto the "Swingtown" Atlanta swing dance discussion list at http://www.onelist.com

From: Ryan Francois MrZoots@aol.com

Sep 19, 1999

Robert Casey rgcasey@avana.net
To: swingtown@onelist.com
Mailing-List: list swingtown@onelist.com; contact swingtown-owner@onelist.com
Delivered-To: mailing list swingtown@onelist.com
Reply-to: swingtown@onelist.com
Subject: [swingtown] [Fwd: Clarity on Ryan's message] WLHF and WRR

For those who might be interested in this controversy, please see attached...I have no opinion on whether it is really Ryan Francois.

There are some pretty good Lindy Hoppers in Atlanta. Don't know if anyone is seriously considering a career in Lindy Hop (like full-time professional...) but if you are, competing (and winning!) is one of the best ways to gain recognition, fame, and enhanced earning ability. This kind of "politics" IS serious for the pros. And there is some obvious bad feelings between the Lindy Hop revivalists and entrenched Ballroom establishment. (Maybe this is natural...I have yet to see Fred Astaire - to me an icon of Ballroom dance - actually do any Lindy Hop swing dancing in any of his movies, even "Swing Time"!)

Bob

IMPORTANT NOTICE
This is not a hoax

This is an important notice written by Ryan Francois for any Lindy Hoppers interested in keeping the Lindy out of the hands of Marcus Koch and The World Rock & Roll Federation

It is not a usual practice for me to write down my feelings about the way the Swing community operates but I am compelled to speak out on this particular subject. Please forgive me if my eloquence on paper is not up to the task of expressing my feelings as clearly as I would like it to. But these are my opinions as best I can present them. I Hope that it will spur you all to act now on behalf of the Lindy and boycott the World Lindy Championships and all other related events and/or people involved with this sneaky plan to arrest the dance from it's true following.

Let me give you some background as far as I understand it.

A few years ago the World Lindy Federation was founded much to the dismay of the main Lindy community of the time. At first it's goals were well intended but it had no support from anyone who would be considered to be the main core of the Swing revival - myself included - therefore it didn't quite work. This left an open door for the World R & R federation spearheaded by Marcus Koch to attempt to take over the Lindy Federation and impose their rules and regulations into the dance form. This included standardizing the movements and dictating to teachers how they should be taught so that we did the exact same things. The pure among us found this to be an intolerable idea. A dance based on improvisation standardized? Worse still owned by a federation who were Ballroom dancers not even Lindy Hoppers! There were many other reasons for Marcus and his Federation to get their fingers on the Lindy but these already were enough. This caused uproar in Europe and after many a heated discussion the World Lindy Federation was disbanded. And supposedly forgotten about.

Now the scene in America and across the globe hadn't established itself at this time. They were no doubt blissfully unaware of the rumblings in Europe, which made it a perfect place to Start a World Lindy Hop Championships run by the World R & R Federation picking a continent ignorant of its prior shady dealings. Which is exactly happened in Europe before the idea was destroyed.

A few months ago I got an invite from Natalie Gomez to attend the World Lindy Hop Championships held at The Supper Club in New York. An idea I wasn't opposed to at first, until I found out later that it was going to be run by R&R Federation. You may not understand this at this point but it will become clear soon that there is no coincidence that both Natalie and Marcus belong to that Federation and neither can be thought of as true Lindy Hoppers. Anyway I digress.

I am asking you not to take me at my word but find out for yourselves about the intentions of this Federation. If you agree with my findings I'm asking you to STAND BY ME and call for a NATIONWIDE BOYCOTT of this event.

Tell as many people as you can not to go. Put it on your web pages and if there are any lawyers out there willing to help me legally stamp this out please email me at mrzoots@aol.com.

I will be asking for your signatures on a protest sheet which I know will be signed by most if not all of the teachers I have grown to respect over the years.

I also plan on picketing The Supper Club on the day of the event and anyone with similar feelings is welcome to join.

Just as a matter of interest these villains even had the temerity to use Frankie Mannings name as someone who was sanctioning the event. Which is completely untrue and then called The UK Lindy Hop Championships in London to tell them they were no longer allowed to run there competition without the approval of the R&R Federation.

Ryan Francois Has Declared WAR I will not go quietly

So now is the time to see where you stand in this. Please get involved, take this seriously and don't stand on the side. As far as I'm concerned the future is at stake and it's up to us to keep Lindy Hop for the Lindy Hoppers.

Act Soon

Ryan Francois
mrzoots@aol.com

To follow is some correspondence from the UK Lindy Championships to the head of the R&R Federation.

Ed: Apparently Ryan (or possibly Robert Casey) is forwarding a message composed by Fred Hunt of the UK Lindy Championships

From: live2jive live2jive@live2jive.co.uk<BRTo: de Coster Dominique

Dominique - thank you for your email.

What is missing from the email is the background information which Lindy Hoppers ought to know before making any decision, and which you have conveniently omitted to give them.

On the face of it this appears to be a simple plea for co-operation from a new Lindy Hopper, but it doesn't say that you are an important figure in the World Rock and Roll Confederation, and that the WRRC is actively trying to take control of Lindy Hop world-wide. Nor does it say that your interest in Lindy Hop is a commercial one based on the interests of the WRRC and not Lindy Hop.

You claimed during our recent telephone conversation that the WRRC was invited to take over the organisation of Lindy Hop after the collapse of the WLHF. As I said to you, the un-named group of people who invited you to do this had no legal right to assign to you control of a world-wide network of clubs, events and competitions. That they did so without any form of general consultation is not only insulting to us all, but is guaranteed to fail to win support.

You claim that you were given 'permission' to run all Lindy Hop competitions world-wide by the International Olympic Committee (IOC), based on the request of the Ballroom dance world to have their type of dancing accepted as an Olympic sport. Lindy Hop is considered by the dancers to be a grass-roots dance which has no connection with the false and stylised world of Ballroom dancing. To use the IOC's ruling that only one governing body can represent an Olympic sport to insist that Lindy Hop is included is totally ludicrous. Not only this, you have handed UK control to the British Dance Council, one of the controlling bodies within the UK ballroom dance world and a million miles from the Lindy Hop world!

Not only has the WRRC assumed, without requesting agreement from others, the role of competition organisers, it has decided unilaterally on a set of competition rules which are based on Ballroom jive and Ballroom R 'n' R (see attachment). These are in no way similar to the rules used in Lindy Hop competitions world-wide, including the UK National Lindy Hop Championships which is run in accordance with the general principles of the World Swing Dance Council. These general rules have been applied to all Lindy Hop competitions or sections within competitions except for the last World Lindy Hop Championships.

The last World Lindy Hop Championships were run by the organisers, and without reference to the competitors, under WRRC rules. The competition is generally felt to have been a farce, with music to fast and too short, and competitors from some countries who were clearly not Lindy Hoppers but had won the right to compete under your 'allocation' rules to the exclusion of good dancers who could have competed. To add to the farce, instead of having the competition at the end of the Herrang dance camp, when Stockholm would have been full of top Lindy Hop dancers, it was moved back a week by the organisers for 'commercial reasons' to the Swedish Water Festival week, by which time many dancers had returned home!

It was claimed by you that you are doing no more than the now defunct World Lindy Hop Federation. The difference is that the WLHF was set up by a group of well-intentioned dancers, mostly Lindy Hoppers but not all, to bring together a world-wide link of Lindy Hop clubs and organisers and to allow different countries to stage the World Championships. To this end they made presentations at a number of conventions, including the Swing Jam, in order that dancers could hear their plans and raise queries. Their objectives for creation of the WLHF were solely based on the love of Lindy Hop and for no other reasons, certainly not that it be handed over lock, stock and barrel to a Ballroom dance based organisation.

Before any Lindy Hop dancers 'sign up' as your 'European Friends' I seriously urge them to consider the implications of providing you with any form of support for yourself and the WRRC which is not intended. They should be assured that they are in no way unknowingly giving support to the WRRC or its plans for Lindy Hop.

Fred Hunt

Marcus' Message
As emailed by Barbara (Baerbl) Kaufer BaerblKaufer@worldofswing.com on Sep 19, 1999

From: Marcus Koch MarcusKoch@WorldofSwing.com

Ed: Notice the date of this message is Nov 20, 1997

E-Mail from Marcus 20.11.97:

Dear Lindy Hop dancers and Lindy Hop enthusiasts,

my name is Marcus Koch and some of you know me as a Lindy Hop and Boogie Woogie teacher and trainer. First off all excuse any language and grammar mistakes you will find (probably many), English is not my native language.

For a few years the Lindy Hop is rapidly growing in all parts of the world. After the first Lindy Hop World Championship 1995 in Norway the interest of different groups influencing the competition scene was raising very fast. Even if you are not interested in competitions in Lindy Hop I would ask you to read the following text because it can still be important for you. If you are not informed about the background please jump to the background information first, starting at the next page.

After I discovered the Lindy about years ago I was stuck to it, so I was very interested to support the idea of a world wide Lindy Hop organization and to help spreading the word of this fantastic Lindy. So I tried to put in my knowledge for dance organizations I got in building up the Boogie Woogie scene in Germany. Unfortunately all the efforts of the last three years burst with the last meeting of the WLHF. The only real losers are all these dancers that are not members of the WRRC and the only winner would be Sweden which came closer to its aim to establish Lindy Competitions internationally in the WRRC as a pure sport with the Swedish rules and education system.

Nobody of the people that were working for the WLHF did all this work for any personal advantages. All of them did this because they believed in the idea of an international Lindy Hop organization. Maybe some people don't believe this, but than they don't realize that if these people really wanted to get control on the Lindy, it would be so much easier for them to set up everything inside the WRRC like Sweden is trying to do, because almost all the WLHF and ILHA directors and workers are already member of the WRRC. Nobody of these people was begging for all of the work but they thought that it is important to be done. (Maybe this is not cool anymore, to think about others and work for the benefit of others)

Even there was the foundation of the International Lindy Hop association, where I was the secretary of, there was no real support for it. The reason for writing this letter is that the WRRC got now twice a letter from Ann-Britt Neman Kilgren (President of the Swedish Dance Sport Federation) including the protocol of the general meeting of the WLHF and the result of the decision and forcing the WRRC to do Lindy Hop competitions under the umbrella of the WWRC without any influence of the WLHF.

I was thinking about this whole federation stuff very much. After doing so much work the last years for the Lindy Hop and getting so little support I'm so much tired fighting against windmills if there are no people to fight and work for.

There are two possibilities at the moment. One is that the competitions would be represented only by the WRRC without any influence by the Lindy dancing people (represented by the ILHA or somebody else) This implies that many dancers won't be able to dance at the next championship, because they are not members of the WRRC or they have problems in their country with their national WRRC organization. Organizers like Simon or the people from Washington, that want to organize the WC in 1998 and 1999, won't be able or maybe don't want to fulfill the requirements set by the WRRC (e.g. free accommodation for each participant, only judges by the WRRC which are chosen by each nation itself, refund the expenses of the judges according to the WRRC fee scales, etc.) If they decide to organize a separate World Championship beside the one by the WRRC, they probably won't get enough dancers and support, because all the WRRC members probably won't get the allowance to participate in a non-WRRC competition. It won't help the Lindy Hop, anyway.

Despite its phenomenal growth, the Lindy Communitee is still too small. So there will be only one chance for the Lindy Hop, if the Lindy dancers and Lindy enthusiasts work together. The other possibility is to support the ILHA (or maybe form something else). At the moment the ILHA won't be recognized as a representative of the Lindy dancers if it consists almost only out of WRRC members.

For myself I really want to do something for my dancing again and don't want to waste plenty of time for something that can't work with the support of other people. I liked to help the other Lindy people, but its not my task to solve the problems of them if they don't want get them solved. It's so strange that many of the people who didn't support the WLHF (respectively ILHA) or worked against them are the people that have the disadvantages with the moment status. So the last thing where I decided to waste my time for is writing this email to inform at least all the Lindy people about what's happening. It's up to you know what the future will bring.

Have fun dancing the Lindy and keep up the spirit.

Hope to seeing you somewhere in the World.

Yours Marcus

For more information, questions, or support please contact Jaana Lepalla at jaana.leppala@helsinki.fi.

===== Background information:

During the workshops and the Championship in Norway mentioned above Steven Mitchell and Freddy Haugan were spreading the idea of forming a Lindy Hop association with should help to build up a network between the different Lindy groups and individuals in the world and should establish and coordinate a annual Lindy Hop World Championship. So 22 people from different nations were sitting together and talking about the way this vision could come true. Finally there were some people who volunteered to do the prework that had to be done to form an organization like this (e. g. organization form, statutes, ways of support Lindy and achieve the set aims, etc. -See also Hoppin' magazine Volume 2 issue 4 September 1995)

The hoppin' magazine became the official newsletter and the World Lindy Hop Federation Archives were born on the Internet, managed by Keith Hughes from Seattle (many thanks from me for this incredible work). Unfortunately the Hoppin' magazine stopped because the producers couldn't stand the local envy and fights.

At the meeting after the second World Championship in Munich everybody realized that the prework that was done was not enough regarding the organizational questions. Many questions regarding the statutes, and the specific country laws could not be answered satisfily. After discussing many ways of how to give better support to the Lindy Hoppers the result was that the statutes shall be worked out till the next meeting. After having another discussing at the Herrang dance camp the final date for forming the organization by law was set to be at the Herrang dance camp between the third and fourth week.

Caused by the organization of the first Lindy Hop Championship other dance organizations were starting to claim their interest in the Lindy Hop. The first was the IDO, International Dance Organization.

The IDO has its headquarter in Italy and is an international organization which started in covering professional dancers. The head of the IDO is Mr. Polidori from Italy. He is as far as I know the founder of the organization and the big chief (maybe you can compare him with the function of Bill Gates at Microsoft) The IDO is organizing many dance competitions (e.g. Disco, Hustle, Mambo, Argentine Tango, Showdance, Swing, etc.) The IDO was organizing Boogie Woogie competitions before the Boogie Woogie moved under the umbrella of the WRRC (World Rock 'n' Roll confederation) which will be talked about later. They still do Swing, were the same styles by the same dancers as in the former IDO Boogie Woogie will be done with faster music. The IDO competitions are big competitions with many different dance competitions happening in the same event. (around 5 to 7).

The day before the first Lindy Hop World Championship the secretary of the IDO was calling Freddy Haugan complaining about that competition. They claimed holding the right for doing Lindy Hop Competitions because they are the international dance organization. After asking the secretary how many Lindy dancers the IDO has the secretary said that the conversation was already to long and quit the call. Later the IDO organized one World Championship by themselves which had 7 competitors.

Another international dance organization is the WRRC (World Rock 'n' Roll Confederation) which also has a lot of members almost all over the world and has its seat in Germany. The members of the WRRC are national organizations which are responsible for the Rock 'n' Roll in their countries. All the people of the board are democratically elected by its members. It is an organization for amateur and professional dancers. Like their name says the organization is supporting and managing Rock 'n' Roll competitions. The Rock 'n' Roll style nowadays is going very much into Jazz dancing and has the main emphasis on high and spectacular aerials (stepped in double summersault). It has almost nothing to do with the 30ies or 50ies style of Jitterbug dancing anymore.

Mr. Polidori from the IDO was many years Vice President in the WRRC. A few years ago the WRRC and the IDO came to an agreement that Boogie Woogie will be done under the umbrella of the WRRC.

A few month after the foundation of the WLHF in Oslo the national members of the WRRC from Sweden and from Germany made a proposal to the general meeting of the WRRC. They wanted that the WRRC should cover the Lindy competitions and education for Lindy beside Rock 'n' Roll and Boogie Woogie, because it is very much connected to Rock 'n' Roll and Boogie Woogie. The main reason for the Swedish proposal was that they wanted to get their Swedish rules and the Swedish education system as the international Standard (statement of Ivan Berggren). The main reason for Germany was the fear of a different organization for Lindy Hop in the own country.

(In many countries in the World dancing as a kind of sports is part of the national sports federation, which normally implies that there is only one accepted national organization for each kind of sport. This means that all the others don't get any social or financial support, or like in France may not (by law) organize any French competition.)

The president of the WRRC, Mr. Wolfgang Steuer, knows me for quite a time and he also new that I was informed about what's happing around the Lindy Hop, because of my travelling and teaching. He also knew about the first World Championship and the foundation of the WLHF. So he asked me about the status of the Lindy Hop at the moment. He said that the two proposals are on the topics for the next general meeting but he don't want to have two organizations working against each other and also respects the WLHF as the representative of the Lindy dancers. He made an offer to the WLHF to combine the strength of both organizations either in form of an own committee responsible for Lindy Hop inside the WRRC or in the way of an associated membership which means that both organizations stay individual but have an agreement how each others members can participate in the offerings of the others organization.

As the elected representative of the WLHF I went to the general meeting of the WRRC and presented for the members of the WRRC what the WLHF is, which aims it has, and that we would like to know in which ways we could work together. Finally there was a committee elected with WRRC members (Godehard Pöttker from Germany, a representative from Schweden - which became Ivan Berggren -, Manfred Mohab from Austria - as a representative from the WRRC presidency, Freddy Haugan (WLHF) and me).

There was one meeting in Stockholm where Ivan's main interest was to talk about the competition rules for the second World Lindy Hop Championship even it was meant to find possible ways of working together. Finally it was a very exhausting but good meeting. This was the only meeting of this committee.

At the next general meeting of the WLHF after the 2nd World Championship the present people decided that they want to focus on an associated membership with the WRRC.

The next general meeting in Herrang elected Jaana Leppalla as the president of the WLHF. Her aim was to build up a network of national contact addresses that will spread the information and help preparing the necessary statutes for the next meeting. 24 people volunteered to be a national contact address, but only 3 responded to the emails Jaana send out. So the statutes were made in a weeks fulltime work mainly by Jaana, Timo Arstila, Taina Kortelainen and me in Herrang this summer.

It was planned, as decided at the last general meeting, to set up the statutes at the fourth general meeting of the WLHF in Herrang this summer. To make it easier there was a six hours discussion period with different topics where everybody could participate and talk. It was meant to set up the direction the majority want to go and to solve problems that can be solved beforehand. After a break there was the voting period with the voting on the single paragraphs of the statutes. The estimation was that maybe 150 people will come to the discussion and only 30 to the boring voting. Unexpectedly there were around 35 people at the discussions and more than 100 at the voting. But most of the voting people wanted to go to the camp meeting first. So the voting was moved by three hours. At the later time there were only 40 people that came back.

After finally trying to start the meeting there was a disapproval against the whole meeting by Peter Renzland from Canada who wanted the WLHF to be only a loose network and not a strong organization. Ivan Berggren, who was once elected by the WRRC to find ways of working together with the WRRC, supported Peter very loudly. So a strange discussions started because still most of the present people weren't at the discussions or weren't involved the last three years. Peter finally asked for a voting on if the WLHF should be a loose network or a strong organization. 24 against 16 decided for loose social network.

To understand the result it is important to know, that a lot of people didn't know what the whole thing was about and didn't realize the consequences. As one consequence of the voting, Jaana Leppalla quit her function as the president and the meeting was closed, because there was nothing to do anymore. (The reason of this meeting was to set up the statutes.)

During the period of trying to understand what has happened some of the people who believed in the aims and the necessity of a world wide Lindy Hop organization joined together and worked on the statutes for the International Lindy Hop Organization, which was founded a few days after this strange meeting in Herrang.

In the meanwhile Sweden send the protocol of the WLHF meeting with the result of the voting twice to Wolfgang Steuer to force the WRRC to accept the Swedish roules and education system.

End of background information ====

Marcus & Baerbl's Response to Ryan's Message
As emailed by Barbara (Baerbl) Kaufer BaerblKaufer@worldofswing.com on Sep 19, 1999

From: Marcus & Baerbl MarcusKoch@WorldofSwing.comBaerblKaufer@worldofswing.com

Hello LINDY Hop Dancers, these is a message for everybody who is interested in LINDY HOP. If you're not interested, throw it away. I'm forwarding these mails to all of the swing dancers I'm having the e-mail address (sended with blindcopy). Please pass it on to the people you know. It can happen then that somebody get it twice.

Please give YOUR STATEMENT to these E-Mails directly to Ryan Francois (Founder of these mails, attacking person, makes war, is calling for a nationwide Boycott, E-Mail: mrzoots@aol.com), Joe Gerrits (Chicago, is supporting Ryan, E-Mail: info@hepcatswing.com), Dominique de Coster (Belgium, Lindy Dancer, responsible for Lindy Hop in the WRRC, E-Mail: ddecoster@arcadis.be), Nathalie Gomes (New York, Organizer of the World Championship Lindy Hop 1999, E-Mail: ngswing@earthlink.net), Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen (Minnesota, gave us information about this (forwarded us these messages), E-Mail: gertj001@maroon.tc.umn.edu); Marcus Koch (Germany, attacked person, E-Mail: MarcusKoch@WorldofSwing.com), Fred Hunt (London, Organizer of Swing Master Jam (see message to Dominique de Coster, E-Mail: live2jive@live2jive.co.uk), Wolfgang Steuer (Germany, WRRC-President, E-Mail: Wolfgang.Steuer@wrrc.org), John Hudson (Old Time Dancer, gave statement (E-Mail: Hudshop@aol.com); AnneBrit Neman (Sweden, responsible for Lindy Hop Competitions in Sweden, E-Mail: abnk@ekero.mail.telia.com)

Please read the stuff carefully and think about what's written there and then make your statements. Think twice about what you're writing (give your comment to Ryan for sure). It should be true and shouldn't hurt people like it was done here. This can destroy a lot in the Swing World. Even if it's kind of big at the moment but if everybody is fighting against each other and spreading lies around, it can break down very quickly. I think the people should work together to keep what they love and not fighting against it or against each other. It's not fair at all to write unproofed things (just something that somebody makes up in his mind) and spread it around. That is like poison. Thanks

Baerbl Kaufer

Marcus dance partner, that means I'm involved, too and it hurts me badly, too)

Ed: The following was included in the body of Baerbl's email message.

From: Marcus Koch MarcusKoch@WorldOfSwing.com
Date: Sonntag, 19. September 1999
To: info@hepcatswing.com; mrzoots@aol.com; gertj001@maroon.tc.umn.edu; Barbara Kaufer; John Hudson; Nathalie Gomes; live2jive@live2jive.co.uk; Dominique de Coster
Subject: Reply to Ryan's statements by Marcus Koch

Statement by Marcus Koch:

Dear readers, please forgive me any spelling or grammatical errors because English is not my native language.

Therefore a bunch of emails were spread around attacking me in person I have to clarify some topics. After reading some of these emails that were started by Ryan Fran�oise I have mixed feelings. Im upset, disappointed and very much shocked. Ryan made a lot of statements without proofing them. He himself wrote Let me give you some background as far as I UNDERSTAND it., which means he didnt proof what he understood or wanted to understand. People reading these emails have to get a very bad prejudice about me, which seems he aimed for. Because some of the attacks were on topics most people dont have enough background information to understand what was going on. This reply became quite long, but it will clarify everything for you. Even if it will take you some while to read everything, please do it completely.

I respected Ryan always as one of the very best dancers. I also totally agree with Ryan in a lot of points and his opinion about how things around Lindy shouldnt be shaped. Because of my long experience in dancing and dealing with organisations of any kind I for myself had always a lot of fear that Lindy will be taken over by the wrong people and get pushed in the wrong direction. So I can understand that Ryan is very heated because he seems to believe his statements. But from anybody of good character making such strong attacks to anybody, I expect that this person talks first to the persons he is attacking to proof his opinions. I myself never got a message by Ryan! I even wasnt on the distribution list to get informed about the attacks against me which gave me no chance to comment on these attacks. I also dont know what other information went around the net. I just got to know about whats going on because friends forwarded me a few mails. The way Ryan was doing this shocked me a lot and Im very disappointed by him as a person. I thought the days of resort to lynch law have past where you consider somebody guilty without giving him any chance to defend against a reproach.

Before I will comment on these attacks with concrete information I want to appreciated Joe Gerrits statement all information pertaining to the matter should be completely factual. He also said I want to further commend Ryan for not using his high profile status as leverage to make his position known and valid. Thank you very much Joe! I hope you help spreading this answer around, too.

Now lets dig in the reproaches Ryan made. For anybody who didnt follow the earlier email conversations I attached the emails that may be important to follow the argumentation.

Ryans statement #1:

This left an open door for the World R & R federation spearheaded by Marcus Koch

Im NOT a leader or spearhead of the WRRC (World Rock n Roll Confederation). Im not in the presidency or any committee of the WRRC, nor do I follow any order by the WRRC. I also have nothing to do with organisation or the ruling of the World Lindy Hop Championship.

To understand the role that the WRRC plays and how Im connected to the WRRC I have to give you some background information. The WRRC was founded 1974 and it is a non-for-profit body organisation. All people do their work voluntary and without payment and are elected by their members which are the national organisations of each country. Therefore it only deals with international issues and is not involved in any national matters. So they will be never involved in what Ryan said standardising the movements and dictating to teachers how they should be taught so that we did the exact same things. What they deal with is to set up international competition rules which have to be agreed on by its members and the education of the international judges. If you want to get some more information about the history and the foundation of the WRRC you can get this at there Web site at http://www.wrrc.org/wrrc/history/. You will find also other information about the WRRC.

I dont know how it is in America and in all of the other countries, but in most of the other countries in the World the government supports sports. Mostly the government deals (accept and/or support) for each sport with only one non-for-profit national body organisation where all clubs and individuals have to be member of to receive the benefits (which can be a lot). In France the law is as far as I know the strictest. There, only members of the national organisation are allowed to run championships with the title French in it. In other countries it is not as strict, but the national federations are well established, so nobody would have a chance to succeed with a private competition. The WRRC - to make it short - is member and recognised by the International Dance Federation (ISDF) and the International Olympic Committee (IOC). In general it means that the whole sports structure is based on non-for-profit organisations.

I hope you have a little picture about what the WRRC is. It doesnt tell why the WRRC does Lindy Hop now. I will explain this to you later in the answer to Ryans statement #2. Now I want to clarify my connection to the WRRC:

I started dancing learning a style of swing that now is called Boogie Woogie and has its base in the Lindy Hop/Jitterbug that the GIs brought over to Europe after the war. Later it was mainly influenced by the Rock n Roll music of the 50s. (comment: I want to put up some more information about Boogi Woogie and Rock n Roll on our web site www.worldofswing.com in a couple of weeks). 15 years ago people started again to organize competitions in this style, but they were mainly ruled by a privately connected group of people. There were many complains about how the competitions were run and how some dancers were cheated. So different people came together and founded the non-for-profit German Boogie Woogie Association (GBWA) which worked on an election base. I was one of these founders. Now everybody who wanted to be part could be. Because an other style called Rock n Roll was already well organised in the German Rock n Roll Association, which was the recognized organisation by the government, the German Boogie Woogie Association joined the German Rock n Roll Association which is now known as the German Rock n Roll and Boogie Woogie Association. This means through my membership in my national organisation Im an indirect member of the WRRC.

I put a lot of volunteer work without any payment in the development of the Boogie Woogie in Germany. This is were I got my background information and experience and also met many people organisations like the WRRC or the ballroom organisation. My motives were always pro the dancers and the dancing. I fought against anything were money or power tried to force the ruling. And there is always somebody who tries to influence things to give himself or herself an advantage. So in this point I can fully understand Ryans fears and concerns. I never changed my motives because Im an idealist, which many people can confirm. I stopped doing work in the committee of the GRBA after everything was quite established because I wanted to concentrate on my own dancing and also didnt have time anymore because of my studies.

Ryans statement #2:

A few years ago the World Lindy Federation was founded much to the dismay of the main Lindy community of the time. at first it's goals were well intended but it had no support from anyone who would be considered to be the main core of the Swing revival - myself included - therefore it didn't quite work.

To give you some background information about the World Lindy Hop Federation I quote the article that was written by Porl Smith and appeared in Hoppin Volume 2 Issue 4 September 1995.

To paraphrase Frankie Manning, getting involved with setting up a World Lindy Federation (WLHF) is your opportunity to help make history happen just as the dancers in the twenties and thirties did.

Steven Mitchell and Freddie Haugan first suggested a federation for Lindy Hop at CANT TOP THE LINDY HOP celebration in New York 1994.

Freddie wanted a universal structure for competitions and Steve, recognising Lindy Hop was once again spreading around the world, wanted to join together the worlds Lindy Hop communities.

These two contacted Lennart Westerlund, Marcus Koch and Deborah Huisken (comment form me: publisher of Hoppin) to talk about forming a federation. At the first Lindy Hop Championship in Oslo in early August, 1995, thirty people attended one or more of the four initial meetings.

Later in the article it says: Existing dance competition sponsors, such as the International Dance Organisation (IDO) and the World Rock n Roll Confederation (WRRC), were discussed and it was concluded that workshops should run in conjunction with Lindy competition.

The WRRC was brought in discussion by Freddie, who was in the board of directors of the Norwegian WRRC member. I also had a talk with Wolfgang Steuer, the president of the WRRC, because he wanted to know whats going on. I told him about the WLHF and the competition. He said he would be pleased, if the WLHF takes care about the Lindy Hop by themself. He said they have enough work with the Rock n Roll and the Boogie Woogie. He thought it may be also more appropriate for the free character of the dance.

The IDO is another international dance organisation that organises international dance competitions for dances that are not covered by the WRRC or the international ballroom organisation, like Mambo, Argent. Tango, Hip Hop, Disco, Hustle, Tap, etc.. They came in discussion because the secretary of the IDO called Freddie Haugan at his dance school at this weekend and claimed to be THE organisation for international competition, which meant also Lindy Hop. They are known for a lot of cheating at the competitions, I can talk out of my own experience. Freddie and Baerbl, my dance partner, confirmed my statement. So nobody wanted to work together with them. A couple of month later they organised a World Lindy Hop Championship on their own, which had 7 couples competing. They also invited Frankie ones and gave him an award. ...The IDO is still doing swing competitions. I would describe it at a mixture between Hustle and West Coast Swing to fast music. I heard there is even a World championship in Florida this year. Therefore it mostly addresses their own community most people never heard about them.

Comparing to these organisations the purpose of the WLHF was: To encourage recognition of Lindy Hop as a world-class, international performance and social dance, to honour its roots in improvisational Jazz, and African-American dance traditions, and to foster cooperation among all participants in its growth and evolution.

The list of the volunteered people for the working committee was also published. Frankie was named as a spiritual leader. My name therefore was under the competition resort, but I was not the main person. I didnt have the time for it, but I wanted to help with my knowledge and experience in competitions, statutes and laws. I was and I am addicted to Lindy, so I was very interested to support the idea of a world wide Lindy Hop organization and to help spreading the word of this fantastic Lindy. Other people at the board of directors were Freddie Haugan from Oslo, Deborah Huisken from London, Christine Nelson (now Walker Sampson) from Seattle, Lindy Farr from Germany, Steve Mascioli from Edina, MN, Brian McGill from Washington. Keith Huges later volunteered for taking care of a Web site the WLHF Archives. On the picture that was shot at the last meeting you can see beside Catherine from the Rhythm Hot Shots, Kenneth and Helena also Ryan and Julie (his dance partner at this time). Beside Freddie there was no professional in the committee. The main reason was that nobody of them wanted to volunteer for unpaid work, which definitely had to be done a lot.

What Ryan was right was that it didn't quite work. Although there was a great feeling of spirit and connection at these meetings, these feeling didnt seem to hold very long. Beside Keith, who did an incredible job putting up the Archives on the Web, almost no work was done by the others. The first year was meant to do the base work, so a federation can be set up with by-laws, structure and concrete aims and support for the Lindy the next year. It also would give everybody who wasnt at these meetings a chance to bring in his or her opinions and help. To make it now shorter, every of the three additional meetings had good spirit and people volunteered for work, but nothing ever was done. Its a big difference between saying to do something and really doing it.

In the meanwhile the Swedish Dance Sport Federation made a proposal at the general meeting of the WRRC to admit the Lindy Hop to the WRRC. To understand, at this time Lindy was very small in the whole World and Sweden was the only country with a established competition scene for Lindy Hop. Almost all the trainers and performers came from Sweden at this time. Their aim was that the other countries accept their rules and education system. Now after the proposal, Wolfgang Steuer (president of the WRRC) had to discuss the Lindy Hop topic in the WRRC. But he invited the WLHF to come to the general meeting of the WRRC, because he knew through me about their existence. At this time I had the most knowledge about organisations and the meeting was close to my home, so I was chosen as the representative of the WLHF for the general meeting of the WRRC. I was able to stop the proposal and a committee was formed consisting of members of the WRRC and members of the WLHF with the aim to find a solution how it would be possible to work together. Sharing the benefits of the WRRC, but still be independent. The aim of the WRRC was mainly to have their dancers compete at the competitions. Unfortunately the moral for work of the other members didnt get better, so I mainly tried to let the WLHF shine as a strong organisation, to have good negotiation stand point. I spend so much time of my life till I cancelled at a certain point.

At the fourth general meeting in Herrang 97 the by-laws finally should have been established. There was a six hours discussion period were different topics were discussed. Everybody could participate and talk. It was meant to set up the direction the majority want to go and to solve problems that can be solved beforehand. After a break there was the voting period with the voting on the single paragraphs of the statutes. Unexpectedly there were only a few people at the discussion and a lot more at the voting. So most people didnt know what this all was about. Unfortunately there was a lot of misunderstandings at this meeting and also some intrigues in form of deliberate misinformation. So a new discussion was brought up. Ivan Berggren, dancer, competitor, teacher from Sweden, partly representing the Swedish Dance Sport Federation wanted that the WLHF only works on the social scene in form of a loose network and that it shall not have any influence on competitions. His aim was still to set up the international Lindy Hop competitions in the WRRC with the Swedish rules. He also considered competitions as pure sport, which has nothing to do with any social aspects. But people didnt understand because the WLHF was made out to be the big danger. Finally the WLHF broke apart and some other trials didnt succeed either.

On the 20th of November I wrote a letter and sent it to Jaana Leppala, who was heading the ILHA (International Lindy Hop Federation), the new. I wanted to get this email out to get everybody informed. Unfortunately it was never sent. You can get some more background information about what happened and about my thoughts and my opinions out of this email. I hope that all of my explanations and also this email make clear that I was always working for the dancers. I was one of the persons who were concerned about having everything ruled by an organisation where it is hard to get influence. I warned the people many times about the things, that would be happening like what Fred Hunt reported from England. So I dont know where Ryan got the idea that Im the spearhead of the WRRC. I never talked to him about the ILHA or the WRRC since the meeting in Oslo 1995!

Ryans statement #3:

This left an open door for the World R & R federation spearheaded by Marcus Koch to attempt to take over the Lindy Fed and impose their rules and regulations into the dance form.

Email from John Hudson to Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen in Minneapolis
Apparently in reply to questions offered by Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen

From: John Hudson Hudshop@aol.com
To: "Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen" gertj001@maroon.tc.umn.edu
Subject: Re: A message from Ryan Francois
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999

Wendy, you are very special!!!! It seems that Ryan is missinformed and he has some missinformed recruits new to this whole scene....

I am sure that Marcus will sort this out in the proper way. Marcus is one of the most honest people I know in the intire scene...He is a genuine good sport and is always happy to see the dancers improve and challenge or beat him on the floor.He and Baerble are the the first ones to shake the hands of the winners..

I was there when the federation formed, I don't recall seeing Ryan there. Frankie was there as were several of the dancers from Sweden and other parts of the world..FYI Marcus is not a dancer nor did he make his tapes to make a living from dance..What he is doing is for the love of the dance and to publish what he spent the last 15 years and countless thousands of dollars researhing..He is passing it on to save a lot of people a lot of time and I believe that the tapes Marcus and Baerbl have made do the best to accomplish that goal....

Marcus is a computer expert. He is a trained and certified teacher..He teachs large workshops all over Germany for Microsoft,earns up to 5000. per day..He is a published writer for Microsoft and computer tech...He has no agenda other than to be the best at whatever he does and is very happy when challenged..It is not nice to insult and slander anyone with a one sided slant and with bits and pieces of a story...Perhaps these other people feel thier livelyhood theatened? Without rules and guidelines, there could only be confusion...

I have been dancing continiously for 53 yrs. and have won over 500 first places in dance..Many were audience applause...To have a WORLD COMPETETION takes a lot of work and all should be thankful that people like Marcus step up to the challenge to help things along..He is there and being singled out by Ryan,I don't understand this since Marcus is only helping,hence the word FEDERATION, I am sure Ryan is welcome to be in the FEDERATION and his expert input would be apprieciated and welcome.....

In my intire relationship with Marcus I have never heard him say a bad thing towards Ryan, he has only spoke with admiration.....I really love seeing all the younger people out dancing and enjoying the old music and the new swing music..It is happy and we should keep it that way......for the love of the dance and music,John Hudson..........please forward this to the needed people,thanks

Email from Joe Gerrits in Chicago to Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen in Minneapolis
Apparently in reply to questions offered by Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen

From: Hep Cat Swing (Joe Gerrits) info@hepcatswing.com
To: "Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen" gertj001@maroon.tc.umn.edu
Subject: Re: A message from Ryan Francois
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999

This message was removed on Friday, September 24 at the request of Joe Gerrits

A Message from Nathalie Gomes of Hop, Swing & a Jump in NYC
Received directly from Nathalie Gomes

From: Nathalie Gomes ngswing@earthlink.net
To: Larry Kang larry@yehoodi.com, Manu Smith spuds@yehoodi.com
Date: Monday, September 20, 1999 1:03 AM
Subject: My answer to Ryan

TO ALL THE SWING/LINDY LOVERS OUT THERE!!!! (Please take the time to read this message and forward it. It is only 2 page long)

This week, a pinnacle point in an attempt to slander the World Lindy Hop Championships has been reached. As the founder of Hop Swing & a Jump, Ive labored intensely for 4 years to help promote and revive the Swing/Lindy scene in NYC. Throughout this time, I continued to endorse an inclusive open minded philosophy to all the people and all styles of Swing.

As in any public capacity I have battled my share of individuals with malice intent. This week's attack against me has been of a personal nature which strikes the essence and core of everything I have worked for. I would like to share my anger with all who are involved in the Lindy community.

The World Lindy Hop Championships (WLHC) was created to showcase and promote Lindy by introducing some of the greatest dancers in the world to the general public. The Last two WLHC were held in Europe (1996 and 1997) and organized by "Lindy People". The organization of such an event is a difficult, time consuming, voluntary task. Taken upon by people who truly love the dance. 1998 the event was not held due to lack of driving force from the Lindy community. I recognized the need for an event which will bring a years work into a climactic celebration. I believe the WLHC could be such an event. When I realized that for the second year in a row the WLHC was not going to happen, I flew to the General Meeting of the World Rock n Roll Confederation (which I am not a member) in Switzerland, knowing they were asked by Lindy people (Swedes and more) to take Lindy under their wing. My intentions were to represent the American Lindy community and ask them to host the WLHC in New York, place where Lindy was born. I sacrificed my personal time and money to make this happen.

Much has happened in my life since the meeting (March 1999). I shot an independent swing feature film for over a month. Now, the majority of my time is consumed with running a dance studio that I just opened last May, teaching and other related matters but I still made time for the organization of the WLHC because of my strong belief in its necessity. So if Ryan believes that "true Lindy hoppers" should take care of the matter, why hasn't he taking the time to do so in the last 5 years instead of seating on the side, criticizing and attracting attention?

On September 17, 1999 I received an email from a friend notifying me of a circulated message by Ryan Francois calling for the boycott of the WLHC and attacking Marcus Koch and myself on a personal level. The same Ryan who I invited to be a judge or competitor in the event. Ryan never bothered to answer my invitation instead he cowardly opted to present the facts as he perceived them over the net.

In his concerned cry to the Lindy public, Ryan alleges that non "true Lindy hoppers" with the help of the WRRC are taking over the Lindy community and are going to standardize the dance. This could not be further from the truth (ref. Marcus answer to Ryan).

Our intention is to hold a competition on the highest level of Lindy under all its forms (including Hollywood style Lindy). The only restrictions will pertain to length and speed of the music. Improvisation remains the key element in the performance. Prior to the event, the WLHC committee will hold a special conference in order to educate the judges, not the dancers, on how to evaluate the performances. A meeting will be held at the end of the championship to encourage feedback and constructive suggestions to improve next years championship.

Ryan in his letter claims "the pure among us found this to be an intolerable idea. A dance based on improvisation standardised?" He claims he is a purist. Ryan contradicts himself by the sheer use of the word "purist". As we all know a substance that is pure is free from any external influences. Is Ryans style the only way to dance Lindy, the "pure" way??? Just by using the word "pure" he, himself, standardizes Lindy Hop. Lindy is a free flowing adaptive, improvised form of body expression. Frankie himself at the time was innovative, for example when he introduced airsteps into the dance.

In my view the only pure thing about Ryan is the idea of self preservation under the auspices of protecting Lindy. I believe this to be a petty and destructive form of expression. In this great yet fragile time for Lindy, his actions could have had severe consequences which only proves his selfish mind set. If Ryan is such a purist, how is it that he finds himself in a Broadway Swing Show performing as the only Lindy dancer amongst a company of jazz dancers who will perform "neo-swing" including salsa, hustle, country and more ? I guess when it comes to money and narcissism the purity of Lindy is quickly forgotten. Ryan mysteriously fails to mention that his two so claim championship titles (US Open and American Swing Dance Championship) have been awarded by West Coast Swing organizers. In addition he conveniently fails to mention that Jenny, his wife and Lindy partner is formally a trained jazz, ballet and tap dancer. Does that make her an untrue Lindy hopper ? If so, than yes I am an untrue Lindy hopper and many of us are. It appears as if Ryan could have stared and co-stared in the movie Face Off.

I could go on with the rhetoric until my fingers bleed. However, I choose the high road. I believe we are embarking a time that will determine the longevity of Lindy. My hope is to focus and generate positive energy to a dance style which represents non-conformity and freedom of expression. It is not important under what flag we march whether ILHA or WRRC or WWF or the ASPCA but that we march together seeking a joint and positive outcome for Lindy.

A journalist once asked Frankie Manning "What was Savoy Lindy?" He replied: "Which day of the week?"

I look forward to seeing all of you on Sunday, November 7, 1999 at the Supper Club, NYC. http://www.hopswingjump.com

Nathalie Gomes

Email received directly from Baerbl Kaufer

BaerblKaufer@worldofswing.com
Subject: WG: Full record of Francois, Koch, Gomes debate...
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:58:54

Hello Lindy Dancers,

at the end of this mail you will find a statement of Dominique de Coster (Fred Hunt was writing the first letter to him which never arrived because of a wrong e-mail-address. This was the beginning of everything).

In the meanwhile Ryan Francois called Marcus Koch on Sunday morning and apologized for the things he has written (a big stone felt from my heart because I like Ryan). He really felt sorry for this. He knows now that he was wrong. It was a big bad missunderstanding of things. But Ryan promised he will send out an e-mail into the net where he will apologize official. Please watch out for this mail. I will mail it to everybody as soon as I have it.

I think everything will work out fine without any war or boycott.

If you are interested in all the debates you can read them under http://www.uvswingdance.net/debate.html (see the following mail with some information from John Tomeny.

Let's swing together

Baerbl Kaufer

Ed: Dominique de Coster wrote to me on Tuesday, Sept 21 requesting that I correct spelling and grammatical structure in his letters, since English is not his native language. At his request I have made spelling corrections and only very minor changes to sentence structure because I felt it is best to allow readers to "hear" his thoughts the way he has written them.

Also, the following letter was originally posted here on Monday, Sept 21 in an incomplete form. The complete letter was forwarded to me by Mr. de Coster and is here now as of Tuesday, Sept 22.

Von: de Coster Dominique ddecoster@arcadis.be
Gesendet am: Sonntag, 19. September 1999
An: live2jive
Cc: Wolfgang Steuer; AnneBritt Neman-Kilgren; Marcus Koch; Nathalie Gomes
Betreff: Let's work together instead of making war.

Dear Fred,

You might have received the answer from Marcus Koch to Ryan's letter. I hope it opens your eyes more on the subject and it helps you to understand that I am in no way trying to mislead neither you or anyone.

By reading your email "that has been also circulated around the world before I got it", I realize that you are talking about my message to invite people to join my Yahoo club. I think you are here acting like Ryan did, it is to say you have made an assumption, and without checking, you have built your self a story up about it. I am afraid you are totally wrong. This Lindy-Hop Europe Club is a totally public club set up by me in the Yahoo environment which is purely designed to get the people in contact with each other to make friendship, to share ideas, or stories, or pictures, AND NOTHING AS EVIL AS YOU ARE SUGGESTING. The yahoo privacy system ensures all people that their true identities are not communicated to any one if they don't want to. You can become a member under a fake name without permitting publication of your email, real name, gender or any info about your self. So even if I had any bad intention like you said, it is impossible to do.

So I have never "conveniently omitted to give any info about my involvement in WRRC" because the fact that I am a small figure in the WRRC is absolutely irrelevant with this Lindy-Hoppers club. Please do me a favor and visit it before you make any new comments about it. Here is the address http://Clubs.yahoo.com/Clubs/lindyhopeurope.

I also confirm what Marcus is saying, WRRC is not a commercially based organisation and has "per se" no direct interest in Lindy-Hop. Only a part of its member counties are interested in having a Lindy-Hop competition scene organized world wide. As no other international organisation is dealing with it and as many Lindy-Hoppers have knocked at the door of WRRC to do so, WRRC gave in to their demand. But WRRC is giving to the Lindy-Hoppers the possibility to organize it inside the frame of its non profit oriented organisation. My humble work is to make it come true. Please visit the WRRC web site at http://www.wrrc.org.

I will organize a meeting with everybody interested to discuss the competition rules after the American Lindy-Hop Championship and after the WLHC. And from what I will hear there,I will make proposals for changes to the WRRC General Meeting. It will be held the second week of March in Stockholm.

By the way, Lenarts Westerlund will come to make a presentation to the WRRC delegates. I really hope that you will be part of the UK Lindy-Hop committee that needs to be built-up to make it possible for your country to participate in the world competition scene and thereby influence the WRRC decisions.

I remain yours faithfully,

Dominique de Coster

A small standing and acting body in the Lindy-Hop world that has no private interest but making things moving forward.
"Where ever there is a will there is a way"

Email received directly from Ryan Francois
I have included the email header that I wrote to everyone as I forwared this message on to the seventy or so people who have either actively participated as primary or secondary parties to this debate or have sent email inquiries to me.

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999; 01:00 GMT

Hello All,

Following is a message I received this evening from Ryan Francois. Ryan asked me to forward this message on to all interested parties. He is currently in London and having some difficulty establishing solid connections for email and internet access.

The full text of this document and all pertinent preceding documents can be found on my web site at: http://www.uvswingdance.net/debate.html

I send this to all of you with hopes for growth and understanding among all of our swing dance communities, and an encouragement to think intelligently as we move ahead.

Best wishes,

  John Tomeny, Upper Valley Swing Dance Network
  http://www.uvswingdance.net/debate.html


===== QUOTED MATERIAL FOLLOWS =====

From: Ryan Francois

Important quote from Ryan's last document.

"I am asking you NOT to take me at my word but find out for yourselves about the intentions of this Federation".

Email received directly from John Husdon

From: Hudshop@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 03:12:46 EDT
Subject: Re: My answer to Ryan
To: ngswing@earthlink.net

Nathalie, Your answer as to the truth as I personally Know it is right on as is Marcus report.....Hip Hip As Ryan would have said it in the past...Yours for a dance, John Hudson

Email received directly from Marcus Koch

Date: 99-09-20 16:17:11 EDT
From: MarcusKoch@WorldOfSwing.com (Marcus Koch)
To: TCWrites@aol.com

Hi Tanja,

fortunately things are not eaten as hot as they are cooked. I was very shocked when I received the email Ryan spread out to the Internet. It holds a lot of mistakes and misinterpretations and was totally wrong about the position I should have played. I wrote a long statement and Nathalie wrote one, too. You can follow the conversation on http://www.uvswingdance.net/debate.html where you also find the statements. It's quite some to read, but I hope it will clarify the background.

Ryan called me yesterday and apologized. We had a nice talk for almost an hour. He wants to send out a written excuse per mail today. So he will speak for himself. You will most likely be able to read it on the same website that I mentioned above.

I hope we can spend the time with more valuable things again, which help the dance and the people.

If you have any more questions, don't hesitate to write me again.

Yours Marcus

Email received directly from Dominique de Coster

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 03:02:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dominique de Coster blocry_dancer@yahoo.com
Subject: Let's work together
To: John Tomeny

Thank you for putting up this web site that gives to all parties the possibility to express their view and comments.

English is not my mother language so I know I am making a lot of spelling mistakes and also some time I might use words that have a different meaning to the people than what I wanted to express. But I guess, this is a risk I have to face. Could I ask you nonetheless to correct my English spelling before publishing my text.

Also you published a letter from me to Fred Hunt which was truncated. The last paragraphs where apparently lost. I attach my original text to this email so that you can add the missing part.

So here is my current contribution to the clarification that you are allowed to publish.

QUOTE

I am afraid to understand from a 2 hours phone call with Fred Hunt in the UK and from a 3:30 hours phone call with Marcus Koch that I involuntary am the starting cause of all this debate. If this is the case I take the entire responsibility of this quarrel on my shoulders.

I guess it is up to me now to give an explanation and I will, but as I feel it is of utmost importance to stick to the facts and to document strongly any statement, I will take a little time to gather the information that will give credit to my explanations.

In the mean time I want to express my thanks to Fred Hunt, despite what he published about me, for our recent long phone call. Although we still have some disagreements, especially on the role of WRRC, we are both open minded and both dedicated to make the Lindy-Hop grow World Wide.

Thank you Fred for having recommended to your UK championship winner to be one of the UK representatives to the WLHC.

I also want to announce that I will be in the Sates the end of October at the American Lindy-Hop Championship organized by Paulette Brockington and I will be staying one week in New-York till after the WLHC, I would like to take the opportunity to organize a forum where all people interested in the building of an international Lindy-Hop competition scene could meet and discuss this issue. I think one meeting during ALHC and one after the WLHC should be possible to arrange.

CLOSE QUOTE

Email received from Angel Whitworth as posted to the Swingtown (Atlanta) Public Forum

From: Angel.Whitworth@weac.com

This whole thing with the championships is a serious thing if you are a competitor. It really does not affect anyone here in Atlanta (at least right now). There are no world class competitive Lindy Hop dancers here in Atlanta. It does however affect the swing communities where there are representatives competing. This whole thing has been under debate for a long while. But, it has basically just been a debate within the "competitive community". Ryan has valid objections to having the R&R federation involved in LINDY HOP. But, I am not getting into all of that. If you are a COMPETITIVE dancer or teacher. You would be wise to get all of the facts. Just so you know!

Angel

PS. For those who will be in New York during the championships, make sure you go see the new Broadway show "SWING". Starring Ryan & Jenny! I am definitely going! My sis is going to go to the premier. I will get a review from her and let everyone know what she says about it! If anything you know the dancing will be great!

Email received from Judy Pritchett
Judy Pritchett is the author of the Archives of Early Lindy Hop and well known authority and historian on Lindy Hop.

Ed: Judy wrote this message after Ryan's first letter was mailed and before he sent his more thoughtful apology.

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:57:17 -0700
To: John Tomeny
From: Judy Pritchett swingdanceshop@savoystyle.com
Subject: Ryan and the History of Lindy Hop

Dear John,

I'd like to add my two cents.

Ryan Francois is a magnificent Lindy Hop dancer, but no diplomat. And he can't write a letter worth a damn. I think he is overwhelmed by his passion for Lindy Hop and his fear that it will be destroyed by the upcoming contests.

Marcus Koch and Natalie Gomez are also very good dancers and teachers. But the dance they do is not Lindy Hop. Perhaps the World Rock'n'Roll Federation should simply use its real name in the upcoming championships and not call them Lindy Hop Championships. Then, whatever rules and codes they come up with will not interfere with the natural and beautiful development of the art form called Lindy Hop.

No dancer in the world today is closer to the original Lindy Hop as it was done at the Savoy Ballroom than Ryan Francois. Oh, sorry. And Frankie Manning. If Frankie were Ryan's age, I'd love to see the two of them dancing against each other. Now that would be a contest!

Swing is a big umbrella (more like a tent top) and lots of styles dance under it. It is delightful and healthy for them to coexist. But let's watch what we call Lindy Hop.

From my heart,
Judy Pritchett

Posted to "The Swingin' Speakeasy" Public Forum (Boston)
Note: there are many other interesting messages on The Swingin' Speakeasy. Use this link to go directly to the discussion:
http://216.22.166.224/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?43/388

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:10:51 -0400 (EDT)
SUBJECT: Announcements & Issues: Ryan Francois, Marcus Kotch, Nathalie Gomes debate

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The Swingin' Speakeasy: Announcements & Issues: Ryan
Francois, Marcus Kotch, Nathalie Gomes debate
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By Big Daddy on Tuesday, September 21, 1999 - 02:10 pm:

Benson,

I think you have some valid points about competitions as it pertains to lindy/west coast items. I for one think this debate may turn out to be a good thing for the global lindy community. How many of us actually knew all of the ongoings prior to this? Now that the information is out there and available to all dancers it is up to us to take action and control the future of our art form.

Regardless of who said what to whom. I feel that Ryan's point of "Again I say there are many more questions that should be asked before this Championship begins and here is where I disagree with Marcus. These questions should NOT be addressed after the event is over." . Even though I am far from a competition level dancer I feel that competition rules and governmental structure should be discussed PRIOR to holding an event of this magnitude. If we as a community wish to grow and prosper a healthy dose of competition is a valid way to strive for improvement.

For a fair competition to be held a level playing ground must be prepared. Who better to set up this playing ground than members of our own community. We, as lindy dancers, should support our peers in an effort to properly address our individual concerns as to the future of this dance. If we are to be regulated shouldn't we be regulated by ourselves and not be under the thumb of any organization whose sole interest is not that of our own?

Some Thoughts from Paul Overton
Paul is a Lindy Hop instructor from San Francisco.

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:27:48
To: John Tomeny
From: Paul Overton kingfish@slip.net
Subject: The Debate

Fellow enthusiasts,

As you know, my tolerance for reactionary and passionate e-mails is very high. Therefore, I don't post very often. But in terms of the current subject on the table for review, I feel I must.

Here are the lessons I have learned about dancing and, indeed, life in the past 5 years.

1. Organized competitions (as they are now) are bad for the dance. Knowing what I know now, I wish I could go backward in time and un-enter every contest I have ever been in. Here's why:

The judging criteria is sketchy at best. I have seen people go out and absolutely SMOKE everyone else and then lose. One judge at NADC actually put Dawn Hampton in 2nd place after she pounded every 20 year old that went up against her in to dust. Luckily, she won anyway. Second, competition breeds homogenization. This has happened to many dances as they have turned in to sports. Competitors watch the couples who win and strive to make their dancing the same as the winner's. West Coast swing is a great example of this. Competitive trends in West Coast Swing are almost as traceable as fashion trends in society. Do we really all want to dance the same? Lastly, a BIG truth about competition. The title you win means bupkus. NOTHING. It doesn't mean you are the best. In fact, you probably aren't. You just happened to be the best that showed up. Or the one that the judges prefered (see paragraph above). I know that if Steven, Ryan, David, or a host of others had shown up at ALHC last year, I would have been dogmeat. I'm not the dancer they are. I have no illusions about that. So, I guess what I'm saying is, do yourself a favor and stay home. The only real competition is against your ego. I'd much rather be known as Paul, the capable teacher and ambassador of Lindy Hop than, Paul, American Lindy Hop Champion. The latter means less than nothing to me. I know, "easy to say in hindsight."

2. People and organizations who deserve a comeuppance, WILL get one. Sooner or later, you gotta make a deposit in the Karma bank. There is NO overdraft protection. No action on your part need be taken.

3. Nobody can take over Lindy Hop. So don't worry about it. People have tried, people have failed. There is no Great Menace lurking in the shadows, just waiting for the right moment to jump out and destroy what we've built. Lindy Hop's foundation is stronger than any one person's influence. Being paranoid when you could be dancing is a waste of time.

4. Don't talk smack in public. Everyone has an opinion. Most of them are adopted from the leaders of any given community. Express your feelings, state your opinion, but don't say hurtful things.

5. The only thing worse than an ineffective organization, is an effective one. Stop forming groups. Seriously. It makes people feel bad. Whether it be the High Level Group, The Savoy Style Group, or whatever, just know that by joining, you are alienating someone.

6. Lindy Hop doesn't need a governing body. It is a SOCIAL dance. To survive, it needs only enthusiastic people who are willing to show the absolute beginner how to do a charleston. The community's success in San Francisco is based on a non-competitive, relaxed, and open minded approach to the dance. Don't get sucked in to arguments and take sides with people. Think for yourself! Instead of asking who is right and who is wrong, we should be asking: " who cares?".

Lastly, just because I have observed and learned these things, doesn't mean I'm good at them. But I do try. Everyday.

Sincerely,

Paul Overton
kingfish@slip.net

p.s. Read Lao Tzu.
http://www.paulandsharon.com

Larry Kang, Yehoodistrator (NYC) Responds to Paul's Message
Larry is one of several webmasters of the NYC based Yehoodi web site (and an accomplished digital photographer)

My two cents...

I think Paul Overton made many good points which I agree with. Here my slant on things:

I believe there is room for competitions in swing. It provides an opportunity for many to see top notch choreography and performance. It can drive the level of dance higher. It is a different type of event than a camp or dance weekend. I don't compete (except for fun joke club $250 events), but I go to the competitions and have a good time. Hey, its different strokes for different folks. But, I agree judging is very hard to do, but not to the point of negating this kind of event.

Regarding his Point 6. "Lindy Hop doesn't need a governing body." It probably does if Lindy is to grow and be sustainable at a large level. Grassroots can only go so far without supporting structure. Do I want Lindy to get big? To be in the Olympics like Ballroom is? Yes and No. I'm sure all of you can think about the potential positives and negatives of that.

Again, I'd like to stress that fighting about these things is a horrible thing to do and the whole WLHC debate only applies to a few people. It seems some people who really shouldn't care much were getting upset or excited about allegations of a non-lindy group taking over the lindy hop. I think all of us should have been disturbed over the infighting happening in the scene. My belief is that what they do with WLHC does not affect the average Lindy Hopper. (Potentially, in the future it could make some big differences, but it is only a small first step). And Paul is right, Nobody Can Stop the Lindy Hop!

An e-mail list is not the best place to dialogue about complex deep topics... so I'll stop here. Please reply to me personally if you have questions or need me to elaborate. I apologize in advance if I've misread anyone. Thanks for your time.

Larry Kang
larry@yehoodi.com
http://www.yehoodi.com
(hoping to be remembered one day as an ambassador of swing because I sure won't be remembered as any champion!)

"Don't believe the hype"

        Public Enemy

Paul replies to Larry.

Larry,

Governing bodies, in my experience, have never made anything grow or enhanced creativity. Lindy Hop is Art. Art refuses to follow rules. If people would let things unfold, let them just happen, the dance would grow on it's own. And it has! Brian Setzer and the Gap and any federation have done less for this dance than most of my level 2 students who simply took the time to help somebody with their swing out.

Everyone always talks about pushing the dance forward. What does that mean? I don't think the dance wants to be pushed forward. I think it's pretty groovy the way it is. There are enough people who are serious about it now to sustain it for decades. Lindy Hop only needs our help in that, as leaders of the dance community, we teach well, pass on the spirit of the dance, and make sure there is always a comfortable place for people to swing out.

It sounds trite and a little goofy to say: "If you love something, set it free". But it is so true. Those who try to control the dance only get smacked upside the head. I've been many places and seen many scenes and they are all full of people who seek to control the dance. Consequently, none of them work. The feeling in places like London or Stockholm is terrible. People fight for control, organize groups who are pitted against each other, and spend most of their energy talking smack about each other. Not in my town! Not while I'm still breathing. San Francisco works because we all love the dance enough to let it go and do it's thing. Trust me, it's a much more fulfilling and stress free philosophy than trying to organize groups and look over your shoulder for the rest of your career.

Regards,

Paul

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:28:25 -0400
To: Paul Overton kingfish@slip.net
From: Larry Kang larry@yehoodi.com
Subject: [sfswing] Re: Ryan, Marcus, Acronyms, and the future
Cc: sfswing@wonderland.com

Paul,

first and foremost, SF to me is the idealized Lindy capital. I dream of the day when I can retire and head over to the city where ordinary people once mortgaged their homes to help build the Golden Gate bridge. And eat lots of Ghiradelli chocolates. This is not a joke.

I am in agreement with you on your last letter. let me rephrase your thoughts.
  a) Governing bodies don't enhance real growth - community does.
  b) There's no real need to push the dance "forward".
  c) If you love Lindy, set it free. Control/conflict is a waste of time and energy.

Others may disagree on some of these (and I'm not going to explain their point), but I agree.

I think we may still differ on numeric growth for lindy... or swing in the mainstream.

Recently, DanceSport held a competition at Madison Square Garden in NY. They included Lindy for fun or whatever random reason they had. Over 4000 people attended and it'll be on ESPN New Year's Day. Ballroom events have lots of large scale events like this. In order to have large scale events like this you pretty much need the unifying heft and clout of organizing bodies or larger profit-generating companies and not just local studios and lindy hoppers.

Now, do I want this for Lindy? I don't really care and you'll certainly lose a lot of the community feeling that we have (here in NY too and many other places). I know I do want to see more music and great bands. Music on the radio. More dancing events and music specials on TV and cable. Nice ballrooms and real social dancing being the norm again and not a cute fad or marginal sub-group. A better "Swing" musical on Broadway would be one of my first wishes.

But, do I want swing in the mainstream? I'm not sure. I know I'll miss a lot of what I have now. I like the scene today much more than what it was like years ago. But, I can perceive an semi-nightmarish future "so-called swing scene" 5-10-25 years from now. But, if swing is going to grow to very large numbers, I think undoubtably some large organizing body will be there. If Lindy ever goes to the Olympics. There has to be. Again, I'm not saying I want this -- I'm very happy with the way things are now. Though it'd be cool to have the Yehoodi.com IPO.

[One note: because of the ease of communication on the internet, we are much less dependent on this hypothetical large body to sustain large numbers]

For my part, if people are organizing events, I'll publicize for them through Yehoodi and stuff, and attend if its interesting enough... for the most part the good events will succeed and I'll roll my eyes at the bad ones. I found my swing niche, too and that's where I'll be.

This topic is pretty much unrelated to WLHC now... and though I still feel lists aren't the best place for discussions like this, obviously, it'll do. The best place is of course, is at a diner at 4 AM after dancing all night.

-Larry

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:04:26
To: Larry Kang larry@yehoodi.com
From: Paul Overton kingfish@slip.net
Subject: Re: Ryan, Marcus, Acronyms, and the future

Now I understand. And you are right. If we want Lindy to grow in the national spotlight, bring back social dancing as the norm and get some money behind this thing, we'll need an organizing body. But you can count me out. I've been there. I started as a ballroom dancer. I took my students to competitions organized by ballroom mega-corporations. I didn't like it, they didn't like it, and I won't go there again.

In terms of Lindy Hop being a cute fad of a marginal sub-group......it is, to most people. So are ballroom dancing, beat poets, and soccer moms. All important in their own way, but not everyday household words. To me, Swing is like a juicy secret. People who seek it out feel that they have found something truly special, not like they are following a fad. The Masons aren't sponsored by Coke and look at them.

As to radio, t.v., cable, satellite, print and the rest......Why let them have it? Most of what I've read, seen, and heard has been, at best, innaccurate. I don't want Ted Turner representing this dance. I want dancers representing this dance. If that means no airplay, airtime, and commercial opportunity, so be it. If we all do our best to take care of our own cities, there will be no stopping Swing. Everyone will want to do it because it makes you feel good, not because it's on t.v. Friends will tell friends and that's the best way possible. In fact, it's what our whole business philosophy is based on. We don't advertise and have never done a commercial for anyone (not for lack of offers). What we do is show up and teach. That seems to be enough. Our classes are sold out, we travel and teach often, and our party is full. Imagine, all without the GAP.

Paul

A Message from Bob Thomas
Bob is a faculty member of dance at Roger Williams University and director of The Kamikaze Jitterbugs

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 21:38:15
From: Bob Thomas bobethomas@earthlink.net
To: John Tomeny
Subject: Open letter: Ryan & Marcus & Lindy

Barbara, Marcus, et al,

I think that this brouhaha about Lindy and World Rock and Roll, etc. brings up viewpoints regarding two separate issues. The first what most people would consider the historical nature of the lindy, and the second is the historical style of lindy. Briefly, my thoughts are this.

Lindy Historically

Lindy began as an entirely improvised dance. By most accounts it was created by kids in Harlem, predominantly at the Savoy Ballroom. As a result of oppressive American plantation culture, to preserve African culture enslaved Africans in the U.S. became accustomed to having to combine their African dance traditions with European dance traditions. This resulted in what we now benignly call African-American dance.

This tradition of synthesis in African-American society played a role in the development of the Lindy Hop. At the Savoy Ballroom African-American kids quickly fused European-American social dances with African dance movements, developing what became known in the late 1920's as the Lindy Hop.

The point of all this is that Lindy, from the beginning, was an improvised dance that freely combined contemporary dances and steps into a new social dance style. "Preserving" a freely improvised dance style is a contradiction. So I have trouble when people begin talking about the "true lindy" which brings me to my second point.

Lindy Stylistically

Early Lindy (1920's-30's) showed a strong African-American influence. The body posture, the stylized use of the legs, arms, and feet, and the use of jazz rhythms all show a powerful African-American influence.

But in the 1950's American media became determined to portray Rock-and-roll as European-American. The American media, controlled by European-Americans almost totally ignored the dance styles and the cultural influence of African-Americans in the evolution of the 1950's Rock-and-roll craze. To watch most American news and movie clips from the 1950's, one would have thought that rock-and-roll was the nearly exclusive domain of European-Americans.

African-American society, discouraged by the unwillingness of white society to recognize and reward black musicians and singers for their remarkable and innovative contributions to American culture, developed an intense suspicion of European-American culture and business, and thus, to some extent, many African-Americans withdrew their participation in music and dance that they felt had become dominated and irretrievably changed by European-Americans.

Since the late 1940's European-Americans and Europeans have whole-heartedly embraced swing dancing and music, freely adapting what they saw and heard of African-American music and dance and infusing it more and more with European music and dance influences. Hence, West Coast Swing, Shag, Jive, Boogie Woogie and the many other lindy variants that have since became popular around the world.

The early Lindy Hop (1920's-30's) was clearly African-American in style and it is that style that seems to most appeal to the most Lindy Hop dancers. I think it is the desire to keep an African-American style in the Lindy Hop that leads people to speak of the "true Lindy Hop" style. I, too, believe strongly that the African-American influences are integral to Lindy Hop's excitement and appeal.

But as Lindy and Swing become more popular, it is only natural that it will change and evolve. Given that most dancers of Lindy are European and European-American, it is inevitable that Lindy Hop will--as it did before in the 1950's-- take on more and more European stylings.

It should be understood that African-American dance is as much about African-American culture and all its intricacies and the ways of seeing and thinking that go with that culture, as it is about style. Without a strong African-American presence in the Lindy Hop scene, it can be expected that Lindy Hop and the many swing variants that are popular will take on the characteristics fo the cultures of the dancers. In this case European and European-American dance traditions.

The "original" or "true" Lindy Hop will never be the evolutionary cutting edge since it is a historical dance rather than a contemporary one. Original and true Lindy will be the domain of a group of dedicated dancers and historicans--some of whom are African-American, some African-European, some European-American and some European-- who are deeply interested in the styles, points-of-view, and other intricacies of African-inspired dances.

For Lindy Hop to be true to its history, even reinstated from the 1930's to the 1990's, it will change and evolve according to the dancers who love it and dance it.

What disappoints me is not that the Lindy is changing. To keep it from changing is an impossibility. What I miss in the Lindy Hop revival is fusion, newness, and innovation--both in the dancing and in the music. Without some sort of genuine newness (fusion of swing with... hip hop --as with Steven Mitchell's work and musically in K7's "Hi De Ho"-- or rap or Latin or other contemporary dance and music styles) the Neo-Swing movement is far more "Retro" than "Neo".

Lindy and Swing here in the US and in Europe have for some time been dominated by European and European-American dancers. Whatever our feelings about this fact, to try and mandate that Lindy "evolve" in direct line from an African-American dance style that is now seventy years old, or to try and dictate that Lindy keep its original African-American style and quality--this I think is silly and pointless.

I sympathize with Ryan and his discouragement about the direction of Lindy Hop. And I sympathize with Marcus for his desire to best serve the interests of the many people who love Lindy and are interested in seeing it grow and change. I hope that the current dispute will be resolved and rather than lamenting what is not, everyone will look to their hearts and use their passion for dancing to support what will be.

Bob Thomas, The Kamikaze Jitterbugs, Boston
bobethomas@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobethomas/

A Question about Hollywood Style Lindy and Savoy Style Lindy
John Tomeny is the custodian of these archives. Hilary Alexander is the sponsor of Camp Hollywood.

From: John Tomeny
To: Hilary Alexander camphollywood@earthlink.net
Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 12:39 AM

Hilary,

I've got a question. I have never seen Marcus & Baerbl dance so I don't know this first hand. Some folks have claimed that what Marcus dances is not Lindy Hop.

Do you think they are Lindy Hop dancers? Could it be the old rift of Savoy Style dancers insisting that Hollywood Lindy is not Lindy? Or is it that Marcus actually does not do Lindy?

Spin-

From: "Hilary Alexander" camphollywood@earthlink.net
To: "John Tomeny"
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:13:31

Hello -

Yes, I would definitely call Marcus & Baerbl lindyhoppers, sure. They aren't West Coasters. They may be more known for their Boogie Woogie, but it's because of Marcus & his film clips that all of us - Erik, Sylvia, me, Alicia Milo, Peter Loggins, first heard about Dean Collins et al. So to me they are sort of the grandparents of Hollywood Style even though it was Erik & Sylvia that gave it a name and made it popular.

Hilary

WLHC Judges - A Message from Nathalie G

From: "Nathalie G" ngswing@earthlink.net
To: "John Tomeny"
Subject: Fw: Judges at the WLHC
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:53:59

For all of you who are worried about the judging at the WLHC, please note that the judges are as follow:

Rob Van Haren (San Francisco, USA)
Paul Grecki (NYC, USA)
Helena Norbelie (Sweden)
Isabelle Theede (Germany)
Simon Selmon (England)
2 more to be announced

As you will notice, all these judges have been involved in the LIndy community for many many years.

Nathalie

Fred Hunt wonders... 'why Nathalie'?

Tue, 28 Sep 1999 06:53:04
From: "live2jive" live2jive@live2jive.co.uk
To: "Dominique de Coster" ddecoster@arcadis.be, Blocry_dancer@yahoo.com
Cc: "David Roberts" ukalliance@centenaryhouse.freeserve.co.uk,
"Wolfgang Steuer" wolfgang.steuer@wrrc.org,
"AnneBritt Neman-Kilgren" abnk@ekero.mail.telia.com,
"John Tomeny" ,
"Ryan Francois" mrzoots@aol.com,
"Cynthia Millman" nycmillman@aol.com
Subject: Re: World Lindy-Hop Championship New-York 7th November 1999

Dominique

In discussing the forthcoming WRRC World Lindy Hop Championships with friends, the point was raised as to how Nathalie Gomes was selected to run the competition, and of course we have no idea about this.

I can understand the desirability of staging the competition in the USA following the number of times it has been held in Europe (including the WLHF versions). What puzzles me is the selection of Nathalie Gomes as organiser. Can you clarify the thinking behind this, please?

Fred Hunt

Dominique explains

Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 05:12:40
From: Dominique de Coster blocry_dancer@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: World Lindy-Hop Championship New-York 7th November 1999
To: live2jive live2jive@live2jive.co.uk
Cc: "David Roberts" ukalliance@centenaryhouse.freeserve.co.uk,
"Wolfgang Steuer" wolfgang.steuer@wrrc.org,
"AnneBritt Neman-Kilgren" abnk@ekero.mail.telia.com,
"John Tomeny" ,
"Ryan Francois" mrzoots@aol.com,
"Cynthia Millman" nycmillman@aol.com
Nathalie Gomes ngswing@earthlink.net

Dear Fred,

When the idea of having the World Championship in the States was set in my mind, and as there existe no unified structure dealing with the Lindy in USA, I had tried to identify one organiser for it who was alrealy organising major competitions in the US. From what I had in hands, there was two possibilities. Either to ask the organiser of the USA open or to ask it to Paulette Brockinghton how was organising the American Lindy-Hop Championship. Very rapidely I got comments about the US Open as not being the proper partner as they are more West coast swing oriented and they didn't handeled very well the Lindy section they organised last year.

Paulette was ok and willing to organise it during her American Lindy-Hop Championship end of october.

At the wrrc general meeting that was held in march in Lausane, I proposed to the assembly my idea to do it in the states and it was quit welcomed. Nathalie Gomes was present as a non voting guest from the States to this GM. We discused with her how to select the american couples as there was no centralised systeme established yet. She came with the idea that we could ask Paulette to make at her event one competition where all couples from USA who wants to enter a USA selecting competition could be confronted and to take the best from there to the World Champ that she claimed she could ogranise in the center of NYC during her own event already planed for first week of november.

The offer was seducing us as we knew that most of the european competitors would be attracted by the magic of the town and would make any effort just to be there. Which they would probably not do in case it was anywhere els in the States. Also Nathalie was familiar with the wrrc as she has been competing earlier when she was living in France.

The wrrc Presidium asked Nathalie to make an official application to host this event which she did and in april the Presidium of wrrc granted her the organisation. How the presidium took his decision, I don't know as I am not a member of it. But I suppose that the fact that no other application having been made by any person or organisation inside or outside from wrrc made it more easy to decide. Also there was nobody els in the world planing any such event. In the mean time I had discusion with Paulette Brockinghton who find it ok for her and started to divide the USA in five regions and build up a set of local selecting competitions that will have a USA final at her event end of october.

This is of cours a sumary and do only reflects the main line of the story. As always it is a little bit more complex then this. But at least I hope it gives you some idea how Nathalie has been selected.

Regards,

Dominique de Coster

Steven Mitchell speaks out

From: Steven Mitchell
To: Janice Wilson janice@jittersauce.com
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 12:41 AM
Subject: Steven Mitchell speaks out

To All Lindy Hoppers

I am alarmed that we would even consider the World Rock & Roll Federations's attempt to become the governing body for Lindy Hop competition. As someone who has contributed to the renaissance and growth of Lindy Hop for over 20 years, I feel strongly this would be detrimental to the dance.

We do not need a national or world organization to govern Lindy Hop. The nature of an art is that it blossoms from the individual, unencumbered by organizations and bureaucracy; the nature of Lindy Hop is that it's a street dance, born and bred in a rebellion from the status quo. The birthplace of Lindy Hop was in America because it offered the freedom to get wild and crazy; the revival of Lindy Hop is now in America because it still offers the freedom to do it your way not the way dictated by a board of directors.

Ultimately, a centralization of power is what causes divisiveness as anyone who deviates from the 'right way' is criticized. I'm standing on a roof top as I shout this: Memberships, rules and a standardized curriculum will suffocate the spirit of this dance.

What the Lindy Hop community has always wanted and always successfully had is a loose network of regional organizations. I was a founding member of the World Lindy Hop Federation and our simple motivation was for social networking over a larger geographic area. The majority of the members, which included international support, were not in favor of focusing on competition and the regimentation necessary to implement that agenda; and the group decided to disband precisely because of the divisiveness of this small group. Competition is good for Lindy Hop, but if it's the engine that drives the dance it will drench the flame and 'flava' of innovation that comes from social dancing.

Competition in Lindy Hop can and should flourish within this loose network of regional organizations. Like all free market activities common in America, anyone can produce an event and if we like it we will attend, spread the word and it will grow. All dancers will vote with their feet and their dollars. In that light, I urge people not to compete in the upcoming World Lindy Hop Championships/WRRF in New York and suggest you choose competitions that have paid some dues, that is, they have evolved organically to gain your trust.

I'm still standing on a rooftop as I say this: I'd like to see the Lindy Hop community, including all styles, come together and hold a national competition in a similar way that the West Coast Swing community holds the U.S. Open Swing Dance Championships without any governing from a world organization. But the producer needs to do it the American way, that is, produce successful smaller events and earn the reputation and credibility necessary to gather support and grow. Yes, it'll be a little tougher for a handful of competitors on their way to an Olympic Gold Medal in Swing. That's too bad.

The bottom line: They need us, we *don't* need them.

AyodiYodi, Steven Mitchell

My Answer to Steven

From: "Nathalie G" ngswing@earthlink.net
To: Steven Mitchell
Cc: "Larry" larry@yehoodi.com, "Rik Panganiban" rikomatic@yahoo.com, "John Tomeny"
Subject: My answer to Steven
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:37:25

Dear Steven,

We are also alarmed that you would even consider going public with empty accusations without checking the real facts. Since you havent bothered to do so in person I would gladly enlighten you through this wonderful medium.

As to your alarm you can calmly press the snooze button, the World Rockn Roll Federation (WRRC) has no intention of governing any Lindy Hop competition. On the contrary, they were kind enough to lend their support after much persuasion so that we Lindy hoppers worldwide could have an event which we could truly be proud of. The rules of the competition were set by Lindy hoppers and represent all Lindy styles while insuring freedom of movement and improvisation.

The first 2 paragraphs of your manifest, while highly incorrect, show a concern for Lindy hop. You must have had one too many Power Bars after writing them since you seem to be consumed by this issue. The WLHC has nothing to do with power. This event stands to promote Lindy worldwide as no other event in the past. Legendary dancers from all around the globe such as Helena Norbelie, Jean Veloz, Dawn Hampton, Simon Selmon, Rob VanHaren as well as many others will be in attendance. The latter people have waited for such a grand event with much anticipation.

I am only glad they were able to see the true potential of the competition as did the major media organizations. As I sit here typing this response, faxes are pouring in from WB11, NBC, CBS, Canal +, ZDF Germany, and many other newspaper and TV networks worldwide.

Your 4th paragraph was quite enlightening. Thank you for your resume and the interesting geography lesson. I must remind you though that bringing Frankie Manning out of retirement is not a free ticket to bash anyone in sight. The type of competition that you advocate has not broadened the spectrum of Lindy dancers nor has it allowed everyone to compete: it requires payment of dues placing a heavy financial burden, automatically excluding anyone who cant afford amounts, at times, exceeding $300. To compete in the WLHC, we only set you back ZERO DOLLARS. In addition, we have set up a host program allowing international dancers an intimate cultural exchange. While you have worked hard on maintaining the small structure that you believe in, I have reached out to anyone who is interested and willing to partake in the spirit of Lindy. I can understand why you are threatened by the widening interest but Lindy is stronger than all of us "and the fire consumes".

You urge people not to compete in the WLHC, how is that consistent with your great free market speech. Deceiving people to boycott an event is not the American way, it is a way of propaganda and pressure. It is clear that you are a much better dancer than a demagogue.

If you are still standing on the rooftop, I urge you to come down (after all its getting cold outside!) and join us in celebrating one of the true galas of swing. Our sole objective is to promote Lindy in America and worldwide. Unlike yourself and your colleagues who call for a divided, regional, unconnected network (sounds more like a gang turf issue), we hope to unite all Lindy hoppers regardless of their dance style, regional persuasion, nationality, hair color, sexual orientation or preference of deodorant. This WLHC in NYC will be proud to present couples from over 12 countries including Lithuania and Hungary. Would your regional competition allow them to perform? With your concept of swing, the American way, you would never experience what global dancers have to offer. How does exclusion and small-mindedness ever become the American way? When did swing become an elitist interpretation of dance?

We have worked very hard at organizing and promoting an event that will represent all forms of Lindy without any restrictions and governing bodies, and will continue doing so, despite efforts from individuals such as yourself.

I invite everyone who believes in the open minded and free of prejudice swing/Lindy concept to come on Sunday, November 7 at the Supper Club and judge for themselves.

Nathalie Gomes - Organizer www.hopswingjump.com

An Offer to Assist from Larry Kang

From: Larry Kang larry@yehoodi.com
To: Nathalie G ngswing@earthlink.net
Date: Friday, October 08, 1999 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: My answer to Steven

Nathalie, I will be seeing Steven this weekend in Ithaca. I am friendly with him and will ask why he didn't contact you first before his missive.

Should I send any message from you?

Nathalie's Message to Steven through Larry

From: Nathalie G ngswing@earthlink.net
To: Larry Kang larry@yehoodi.com
Date: Friday, October 08, 1999 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: My answer to Steven

Hi Larry,

You can just tell Steven that I have nothing against him as a dancer or as a person. I just believe that there are many ways of promoting Lindy. There is no right or wrong way as long as it promotes the true nature of Lindy which in my opinion is freedom of improvisation and interpretation. And again, before going out there on the net, people should come and talk to me.

I am just an organizer who is doing her best to keep what we love alive. Having a worldwide organization that supports Lindy doesn't prevent people like Steven to continue what he is doing.

Larry, please send my letter [above] on the web as soon as possible.

Thanks

Nathalie

Paul Overton's reply to Nathalie

Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:51:22
To: John Tomeny
From: Paul Overton kingfish@slip.net
Subject: Re: Steven Mitchell speaks out / Nathalie Gomes responds

Dear John, dancers, et all,
The direction this debate has taken is disheartening. The amount of pertinent information is low. The amount of personal attacks are high.

Steven Mitchell is the reason I started Lindy Hopping. He is my teacher, coach, confidant, and friend. He has his opinions, just like everyone else. But no matter what he thinks about competition, federations, or anything else, one thing can not be ignored. He is, and has been, one of the most influential figures in the world of swing dancing and has contributed a tremendous amount of energy and enthusiasm to the cause. The amount of disrespect he has been shown in Ms. Gomez's e-mail and the caustic tone with which it has been delivered is enough to make me stay away from any event that Ms. Gomez will ever organize. All dancing debates aside, I don't appreciate people who attack my friends.

In case you were wondering, I don't agree with all of Steven's views. Or Ryan's, or Marcus', or Nathalie's. But I'm not going to resort to shallow insults and warfare to get my point accross. What I will do, however, is pass Steven's views and Nathalie's response to them (with no editorialisation on my part) to every single dancer I know so that they can make an educated decision on whether to withdraw from the competition or not.

Regards,

Paul

Bob Thomas offers a studied perspective

Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 09:23:02
From: Bob Thomas bobethomas@earthlink.net
To: John Tomeny
Subject: Re: ongoing lindy debate

John

I've been having various email correspondences with various people about the lindy debate, and I've ended up compiling the ideas in them into this letter. Letter follows and is also attached as a text file.

Distribute, post, do as you will. I'm moving more and more towards roiling the waters, and, although I'm not there yet, I feel quite certain that with a little bit of luck, I'll yet manage to put my foot in it.

Thanks much for your help. Let me know your thoughts.

Bob Thomas

-------------------------------------------

RE: the Lindy Hop debate of 1999

John,

In the ongoing debate about lindy and the WRRC, I'm afraid I have to respond in defense of Ryan and Steven Mitchell.

I think that Ryan and Steven are both trying to address problems that are historical, relating not just to lindy, but to any art that has strong African-American roots. I frankly don't believe that Ryan and Steven mean to assail the intentions of the WRRC and those interested in moving lindy towards formal international competition. What is at issue here is the nature of lindy, and how that nature could be changed by becoming part of the WRRC.

To my thinking, the debate about lindy is about the fact that a "black" or African-American dance is now being done primarily by Europeans and Euro-Americans. And, on a second level, the debate is also about how to "control" the evolution of this traditional lindy (which essentially hearkens back to point number one in a variety of often awkward, sometimes subtle and occasionally not-so-subtle ways), and, ultimately, define what lindy "means" in the coming years.

White Society, Black Society, and the Lindy...

Lindy is a unique kind of dance craze in that it is probably the only contemporary American dance trend that is almost entirely revivalist. Especially interesting and unique about lindy hop is that the revival of this originally African-American dance form has-- from the beginning -- been driven primarily by Europeans and European-Americans.

This is an odd kind of turf battle with many of the white people not even understanding the irony of white people anxiously preserving a "true" style of dance that was, throughout much of its day, an African-American dance. The values of the two cultures are very different in many important respects.

African-American dance and music has always had strong ties to the philosophies of black culture, viz. a finely honed appreciation for the notably unique, creative, rebellious, expressive, and outrageously impressive individual--a culture with a historically justified distrust of the values and culture of Europeans and European-Americans. Inherent in the cultural philosophy of African-Americans is an appreciation for innovation and improvisation on many levels, especially artistically and socially.

On the other hand, European society (viz. much of Europe and most of the US) has a strong tendency to place value on group "individuality", financial and political status, competition and public "achievement" via mass media.

Artistic Colonialism...

The artistic colonialism of European-American culture in the past--most especially with jazz music and jazz dance-- has encouraged black artists of all disciplines to keep their work at a safe distance from Euro society, doing their best to protect their work from their "benefactors". And I think, in part, it's this issue of artistic (racial/social) colonialism that is driving the lindy debate.

In Euro society, there have always been people who have been irked and annoyed at various of the Euro values since an early age. These people don't just like the lindy, they love it. They love the lindy for its defiance of Euro values, its assertion--along with early jazz dance and music--of African-American individuality and creativity over European conformity and adjudicated status, and, perhaps most notably, they love the lindy's emphasis on rhythm and movement ("style" or "form") over steps and moves ("content").

But there are also many white people who enjoy the arts-- and African-American arts especially--the way they might enjoy food at a Thai restaurant or a glass of French champagne. For these weekend warriors, lindy is not a philosophical assertion but, rather, a delightful and pleasant way to spend some time after a long week at the office, at the Exchange, or in court; the lindy offers them a pleasant respite from the rigors and requirements of thriving in a highly competitive Euro-status society.

On the one hand, the weekend warriors are responsible for much of the lindy revival. It's often the weekend warriors who've brought in today's lindy stars to teach workshops and perform, who've built lindy into an internationally popular dance revival. But, on the other hand, the weekend warriors are indulging in a kind of--albeit traditional-- artistic colonialism.

Ryan and Steven and Lindy Style...

Which brings us back to Ryan and Steven's attempt to assert that lindy has a personality, a style that would not do well with the WRRC. The lindy revival has been based on lindy as it was done in the 1930's. At that time lindy clearly had a strong basis in African-American dance--the forward body position and bent knees, the expressive use of the arms and legs, the rhythmic body timing and its emphasis away from the primary beats, and, of course, the various movements and steps that are clearly west African and African-Caribbean.

In this tradition, the lindy of today has so far has resisted being bound by a single syllabus or a set of constrictive rules.

On the other hand, Rock-and-Roll could not be more clearly European--the upright body position, the high kicks (with some remarkable style similarities to Irish dance), the gymnastic moves, the grand competitions in cavernous ballrooms that--to me--hearken back to the European courts. And of course, emphasis on a specific and carefully defined syllabus.

What I think that Ryan and Steven are trying to assert is that the nature, style and history of Lindy Hop are historically opposed to the nature, style and history of Rock-and-Roll.

I think that the one weakness of Ryan and Steven's position is that lindy as we know it today is a "recreated" dance form, and that many of those responsible for resurrecting lindy hop --from the beginning-- were and are European and European-Americans.

What I think...

What do I think? My relationship with lindy is personal. I danced in two national competitions before I even knew any lindy hop. When I'd actually learned a good bit about lindy, I stopped competing. I realized that, for me, competition is counter to the nature of lindy.

Personally, I like to have fun when I dance. Professionally, I'm a stage performer doing dance shows with my wife and original solo monologue shows. For me, the bottom line is that Lindy and early jazz dance are visually exciting and lots of fun. Also, I use a lot of humor in all my work, and I find that lindy and early jazz styles and movements are somewhat subversive (in contrast to other American dance styles which are surprisingly conventional), allowing me the opportunity to engage in movement and moments that make audiences smile and even, sometimes, laugh in recognition of our own humanity.

I welcome any comments, suggestions, or rebuttals.

Sincerely yours,

Bob Thomas
Kamikaze Jitterbugs
Boston MA
bobethomas@earthlink.net
www.bobethomas.com

An Invitation from Paulette Brockington

Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 15:37:06
From: Paulette Brockington hoofer2@ibm.net
To: Undislcosed list
Subject: Amer. Lindy Assn. meeting Oct. 31 at 1pm

Hi,

I don't know whether you are aware or not but I have scheduled a meeting at ALHC on Oct. 31, 1999 at 1 pm to discuss the formation of some kind of national organization for American Lindy Hop clubs, associations and individuals. I know not everyone will be able to attend this meeting but I am asking for items for the agenda to be sent to me over the next week.

In addition, there has been much heated debate and mudslinging over the World Lindy Hop Championships. I have scheduled a meeting at 7pm on this same date for people to talk to Dominique, a representative of the World Rock and Roll Confederation.

Your input is much desired on my part.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Paulette

Marcus Koch asks for clarification

From: "Marcus Koch" MarcusKoch@WorldOfSwing.com
To: "John Tomeny"
Subject: WLHC discussion
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 05:32:57

Hi John,

I didn't like the way this discussion started and I still don't like how it is run, because it is too emotional and doesn't provide many substantial facts. Therefore I didn't want to give more comments to the list in the past. I preferred to talk to some people on a personal level. But following the discussion and the attacks it doesn't make fully sense to me. There are to many contradictions. I'm more and more getting the feeling that there is something else behind it; I just don't know yet what it is.

Anyway, I still hope that we can get something fruitful out of this discussion, so I want to share some thoughts of mine to the list:

It is very naive to believe that a free market is doing everything. Actually there is no free market, even not in America. There are lawsuits against most big companies like Microsoft, IBM, AT&T etc. because they were blamed for ruling the market. How is it possible, that one company rules a free market? (By the way, there is enough scientist research that shows that a free market can't exists and modern history shows enough examples that this assumption just causes a lot of trouble). So Lindy Hop needs some organizations. By the way as soon as you give dance lessons (and probably take money for it) you have a kind of a group or organization. How much and what kind of organization and structure is good and necessary for the Lindy Hop is another topic and for me the real question we should address and discuss on the net. Unfortunately the time somebody is dancing or how much he already did for the Lindy doesn't give us an answer to this question. There will be many individual answers to this question, depending in the country, the environment, the kind of people, the aims and so on. To understand the different needs of the people on this World the Internet would be a great technology to use. At the moment it is mostly used for emotion unloading.

At the moment I have some questions regarding the WLHC. Maybe somebody can help to dissolve these contradictions?

- If people really believe in the idea of a free market why is this World Championship such a problem? Why can't the people decide by their feet and dollars for this event, too? Why must some people tell other people what they have to do? Free market, but no free opinions?

- Why is it a problem that the WRRC is covering this World Championship? There have been already three WCs before which where all patronaged by the WRRC. There were no complains from any heavies then.

- Two years ago in Herrang there was the discussion if the World Lindy Hop Federation shall take care of competitions or just work on a social scene getting people together. At last general meeting of the WLHF Ivan Berggren from Sweden wanted the WRRC taking care about the international Lindy Hop competitions and the WLHF just working on a social base. This point of view was supported by Steven Mitchell, Kenneth and Helena, and other dancers from different nations, including America. This was 1997. Why is it suddenly a problem for Steven and others?

I would like to see the proven facts that really speak against this WLHC. My suggestion would be to collect commented lists of pros and cons (maybe also a column fears) for these topics: WLHC, WRRC, organization for Lindy Hop. All these arguments must not be based on emotions or wrong implications. This would make people, who are not involved in it, able to make up their own opinions, instead of following the people who scream loudest or have a certain reputation.

Yours Marcus

Nathalie: "Time to move on"

To all Swing Lovers,

I hope this is my last letter regarding the on going debate about the World Lindy Hop Championship. It saddens me that certain individuals have chosen to divide the swing scene by disseminating rhetoric and attacking the competition. By attacking the world Lindy hop championship, they attacked all the people who devoted their personal time helping me in this project.Ê I am offended for myself and for them by these smear campaigns and chose to respond accordingly.

After this letter, I would like to leave all this behind and concentrate on the important tasks regarding the World Championship, such as organization and promotion.Ê Our sole intention is to promote Swing-Lindy by showcasing the best dancers worldwide via television and other media outlets. All this while keeping with the joyous atmosphere for social dancers.

Those who know me, understand that I have no hidden agenda whatsoever.Ê As a marketing director for a big organization in NYC, I had the unfortunate exposure to the backstabbing political battles of the corporate world.Ê I believed the Swing community would liberate me from these detrimental wars.Ê I embraced Swing and Lindy because of the happy smile it brings to peoples' faces, a warm reaction I've rarely seen and felt in any other venue.Ê I decided back then, to leave the corporate world and devote my entire being to Swing.ÊÊ

The reaction to the WLHC has been mostly positive except for a few individuals who, to my opinion, felt it would threaten their position as teachers or respected dancers.Ê Their negative response was selfish.Ê To those who do not realize, the Swing community is experiencing a membership decline, especially in major cities.Ê My only goal is to help keep it alive, as I've been doing for the past five years. When I chose to organize the world championship, and consequently bear a high number of responsibilities, it was to have existing and future swing dancers experience the joy we all long for.Ê I never expected to engage in political battles with people within the swing community.Ê I hate how it affected my friends and I, but I believe in my way and have devoted too much time and effort to turn the other cheek.Ê All I ask is that we all behave unselfishly and exercise freedom of thought, while keeping in mind what is best for Swing.

For all the above reasons, I will be hosting the 1999 World Lindy Hop Championship in NYC at the Supper Club on November 7, 1999.Ê As planned, a panel of discussion will take place on Monday, November 8th, at Hop Swing & a Jump to assure the quality and fairness of the competition.Ê If you truly care about Lindy, and would like to contribute, I would encourage you to do so at this opportune time.

Please allow me to do the best that I can - the best for Swing.

I will see you all on November 7, 1999 at 2 p.m. Bring high spirits and lots of energy

Love,
Nathalie
http://www.hopswingjump.com

We are a Community!

Hello Dancers,

I have made a point of not expressing my opinion about the things that have been going on in this debate, feeling that my role is one of a facilitator. My objective has been to assist people with communication in a larger community, not wanting to influence the discussion in any particular way. But this debate has taken a particularly nasty turn recently, and I feel compelled to speak up.

When I first started the debate archive it was because some of people active in the argument were throwing messages around to swing dance discussion lists, accusing each other of things, and paying little attention to what each other was saying. I was collecting these messages and trying to understand what was going on. After a few days I noticed rumors starting to crop up on some of the discussion lists.

So I decided to organize the messages and send them back to their authors and to the lists in an effort to improve communication and stop the rumors. It was apparent that very few people were actually reading - and understanding - everything. I felt that if people could read the complete body of the discussion - and if the debaters themselves could see the impact of their arguments - the situation would improve. It did at first.

But the debate has taken on a life of it's own that it doesn't deserve. There have been some particularly nasty messages sent from sources that I never expected to read such harsh words from. Some of those messages have remained off the general list and will not be posted to the archives since they do nothing to advance the exchange of ideas. We all have our own opinions about what is best for the dance we love.

There are issues, differences of opinion, and misunderstandings that need to be resolved. But this is not the way to do it - thrashing each other with stark words in a sterile, electronic world. We are human beings. We have no business behaving this way. One of the things I have noticed in my work over the years is that people are far more willing to be harsh to each other on electronic mail than they would be face-to-face.

This bickering and snipping at each other is getting out of hand. We have demonstrated that we are more than animals. We have the capacity to do more than animals can do. We can express feelings of love and hatred beyond the capacity of animals. I don't know about others, but I've about had my fill of the hateful things that people have been dishing out to each other in this debate. When this is over I'd still like to have some respect left for the people who I admired before it started.

We are a community! No matter how far away from each other we are, we are community!

In the small Vermont/New Hampshire swing community where I teach and host dances we have some very diverse interests, but we've learned through some infighting in past years that we have a choice. We can either fight with each other and destroy all that we love. Or we can support each other and thrive.

What's it going to be folks? Do you really want to destroy everything that we all have all worked so hard to build? It's time to make a decision. Choose what you want for an outcome - healthy swing communities, or shambles. I'm assuming you want healthy swing communities. If so, then please think carefully about how you're going to get there.

If you have something more that you want to say, please keep it civil. Please stop snipping at each other and instead put a little more signal in all the noise that is in the air. Please debate the issues with intelligent, thoughtful comments.

Both Paulette Brockington and Nathalie Gomes have announced plans to host open forums for discussion. Paulette will host a meeting on Sunday afternoon, October 31 in Stamford, CT at the American Lindy Hop Championships. And Nathalie will host a discussion in NYC on Monday afternoon, November 8. If you have questions or anything constructive to offer please send email to:

  Paulette Brockington hoofer2@ibm.net
  Nathalie Gomes ngswing@earthlink.net
  John Tomeny

Thanks,

John Tomeny
Co-custodian of WLHC debate archives with Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen

  http://www.uvswingdance.net

  http://www.swinginhepcats.com

Judy Pritchett asks what are the "Fringe Benefits?" of running an event of this magnitude

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:44:24
To: John Tomeny
From: Judy Pritchett swingdanceshop@savoystyle.com
Subject: Fringe Benefits?

Dear John,

I know there are many rumors suggesting that there are considerable financial benefits to holding international dance competitions. However, I am not clear how that works.

For example, the upcoming World Lindy Hop Championships is receiving sponsorship from the Loews movie theatre chain. What does sponsorship mean? How much money is involved?

Tonight Natalie Gomez is running a dance contest in which the prizes are sets of tickets to Loews theatres. As far as I know, she is doing this as a private entrepreneur; it does not appear to be a WRRC contest. So does this sort of sponsorship include fringe benefits that exceed beyond the event itself and fall on the organizers?

I think it would be nice for the Lindy Hop public to know exactly what kind of sponsorship there is for this event and how much money is involved. Is there a charitable organization that will benefit from the profits of this event as there was for Frankie Manning's 85th Birthday?

Also, I follwed the suggestion of an earlier letter writer to look up the WRRC on the Internet http://www.wrrc.org/ and I found its ignorance on Lindy Hop and its ballroom dance orientation very enlightening indeed. I suggest any concerned Lindy Hoppers look at this for themselves.

Judy

Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen "Does the WLHC Debate Concern You????"

From: Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen jo@swinginhepcats.com
Subject: Does the WLHC Debate Concern You????
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:26:18

October 12, 1999

Dear Local Lindy Hoppers, Small Swing Businesses and Organizers,

What do YOU think about the World Lindy Hop Championship debate? Those involved in the debate are in the business organizing national and world-wide events. Does it affect you? What can we learn from it?

In some ways this debate seems to be somewhat distance from so-called "ordinary" lindy hoppoers, local and regional community organizers, teachers and businesses. The social historian in me (my real job) wants to know what you think we can learn from this debate to enhance our own experiences or knowledge of the dance and its history. Does it concern us? Is there a generation thing here? What do those of you in your teens or mid twenties think about all this? Others? Can we better our own communication and cooperation with each other in our own communities or across communities? Cooperation such as exchanging links, passing out each other's flyers, working together as organizers and vendors at local or national events, etc. are all simple tasks, and they build community.

Speaking from my own experience in the Twin Cities, I think even on a local level there is sometimes a bit too much competition and not enough cooperation, though for the most part I am blessed with good relations with most in my own community. The majority of people here are so willing to work with and support one another, organizationally, financially and even emotionally or physically. The more people who contribute in a community by teaching, organizing events, performing or selling lindy hop merchandise, the richer the community is and the faster it will grow. This is not the job of one person or group. Only this kind of communal and non-competitive attitude will keep the spirit alive and will inspire others to become excellent lindy hoppers. Our energy needs to be directed toward the dance, not toward protecting "territory," power or reputations. Even for those in business, there are ways to keep the spirit of the dance and the community alive without going out of business, but once the pettiness, selfishness, competitiveness and defensiveness begins something beautiful is ruined. Especially surrounding something as special and sacred as lindy hop, there is no excuse for this kind of attitude or behavior - neither on the WLHC level, nor on the local level.

Still, my own experience here and at national events I have worked has shown me that most lindy hoppers are sincere, mature and good people, capable of working generously with other dancers, organizers, and businesses, and that, in addition to my love of dancing is what has kept me in the community. Furthermore, I was so excited at a local Jean Veloz and Betty Wood workshop this weekend to see how the younger dancers in our community have really developed - they are lookin' good! I want to continue to be a part of this, to grow myself, and to watch others grow as dancers and as people.

I think we can learn from both the positive and the negative parts of this electronic debate. But what then, can we learn?

I will continue to work with John Tomeny of http://www.uvswingdance.net to ensure that unreasonably inflammatory messages that personally attack others, are self-promotional, misrepresent the facts, or don't add to the debate in a constructive matter are not posted. My purpose is not to promote local in-fighting or get in the middle of such things, but to provide a space for constructive discussion. Most of the dancers I meet dance as a hobby or are local instructors or organizers. That is, they are not organizing national or world-wide events, nor are they entering either the ALHC or the WLHC. Still, the dance means a lot for them as well. It seems that some kind of hierarchy has developed, but I would think that there is something that we on the local level could also learn from the WLHC debate.

Sincerely,

Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen
TC Swingin' Hepcats
www.swinginhepcats.com

The Lindy Hop Academy (or the pyramid of multi-generational instructors)
Ed: The following letter was originally part of a personal message between the parties. The two occurrences of ellipses "..." indicate personal portions of the letter that were removed prior to public posting.

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 15:14:34
To: John Tomeny
From: Judy Pritchett swingdanceshop@savoystyle.com
Subject: The Lindy Hop Academy

Hi John,

...I don't consider myself one of the people that should be listened to. I consider myself a well-positioned outsider, that's all. It is Ryan and Steven, of course, and many others whose opinions are known on this even if they are not on the Internet.

The way I see it, there is sort of a pyramid in Lindy Hop, that perpetuates the continuity and the evolution of the dance; it is a natural organic process. At the top is the Savoy Ballroom, where it started, and the dancers from there. This would include Dean Collins, Pepsi Bethel, Mama Lu Parks, Sugar Sullivan and some of the others as well as the greatest dancers of all, those in Whiteys Lindy Hoppers (covered in my archive.) Then there are the dancers who studied directly with the original dancers. (The Rhythm Hotshots, the Jiving Lindy Hoppers including Ryan who was with them in the early days, Erin and Steven, Jonathan and Sylvia, Margaret Batiuchok, Paul Grecki, others.) I am excluding Frankie from this because everyone has studied with Frankie as they are all so ready to advertise. Only a handful of people have taken private lessons from him or had any kind of intensive study with him. (Personally, I find it shocking that Natalie Gomez never even approached him for private lessons or showed any interest in other training opportunities with him in NY which people outside of NYC would die for.)

Anyhow, this generation of teachers is well represented in "Can't Top the Lindy Hop", which was 5 years ago. These teachers, who trained with the originals, went on to train others. (Rob Van Haaren trained with Jonathan and Sylvia, Paul Overton trained with Steven Mitchell and so on.) There is a similar kind of training/apprenticeship in jazz music and tap dance, for example, as well as many other areas of serious endeavor.

Nowadays, students from all over the world who are dead serious about Lindy Hop go to Herrang to study, apprentice and, if they really excel, start to teach. (They go for weeks every year, not a week and a half once.) Thus Chris Yee, Chachi and Josie Say represent a new generation that will ensure the future of Lindy Hop, each dancer putting their individual stamp on the dance as they carry it on.

The pyramid is getting wider. I would say that today there are probably 150-200 people who have had serious training with the original masters, or the new masters of Lindy Hop, who are passing on the tradition and putting their stamp on it. I know who these people are (I am not one of them.) They know who each other are. All of them know that Natalie Gomez is not one of them...

Judy

Martin Ellis offers some thoughts from the UK

From: Martin Ellis swinguk@swingland.com
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 06:30:20
To: Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen jo@swinginhepcats.com, John Tomeny
Subject: WLHC

Hi Wendy

I've stayed out of this so far, having been standing back somewhat bemused and amused by the whole saga. The first thing that struck me after printing out all 50 pages or so of the debate was how quickly a group of people can write such a riveting book in such a short space of time!

It saddens me to read Bob's comment "It's funny, but in some ways I'm glad that the swing/lindy craze (all of a year of it here in the East) is waning...". I've been hooked on the Lindy Hop since the day I started some 7 years ago. It was, and is, such fun, and such an escape from the conformity and drudgery of the 9-5 life. I've had some great teachers, inspiring people like Sing Lim, people of principle like Ryan Francois.

We were taught to understand the Lindy Hop, to appreciate what makes it so unique. The dance is inextricably linked with the culture in which it developed. That culture may no longer exist, and if it does, it may no longer be at the centre of the current Lindy Hop scene, but it's what keeps the Lindy Hop alive and will continue to keep it alive. There has to be an appreciation of that, otherwise it will not last.

People like Steve Mitchell, Ryan Francois and the Rhythm Hot Shots (and many others) have been nursing and developing the Swing scene and the revival of Lindy Hop for many many years - they have devoted their lives to it and the least we can do is to respect their views and opinions. THEY HAVE SUCCEEDED in a way that no-one else has done. The Lindy Hop died with the evolution of Rock'n'Roll and it seems to me there is a danger that this could happen again.

It is not difficult to educate people in the appreciation of true Lindy Hop, but it takes some intelligence and understanding. It also requires that the core of the scene appreciate it's roots and culture and that the real competition is on the floors of clubs and dance halls, born of respect for people's skills and, even more importantly, individuality.

There is a real danger that the thriving, growing community that has taken so long and so much painstaking work to develop could be decimated by a shift of it's core away from the people who really understand what it's about.

Competitions are all very well, in that they expose the dance to the media and therefore to more people. In the short term this is good for business and certainly for those who win the titles, but it doesn't show what it's really about. If people really want to promote the Lindy Hop, they should work to get the media interested in what goes on socially, not just as the usual "soundbites", where camera-friendly people are invariably shown in outrageous clothes doing flash moves, but the community, what makes people come back again and again for year after year, the beauty of dancing as one with another person and the beauty of Swing music.

This will attract people who will stay with it and, in the longer term, create a thriving and permanent scene (albeit a sub-culture). That is what we are trying to do. Let's hope we succeed.

Kind regards,
Martin Ellis
www.swingland.com

A Perspective from the Swingin' Speakeasy Discussion Board in Boston

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 18:58:48
TO: SwingKat7@yahoo.com
FROM: "Swingin Speakeasy" SwingKat7@yahoo.com
SUBJECT: Dancing: WRRC!

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The Swingin' Speakeasy: Dancing: WRRC!
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By EightBar (Eightbar) on Tuesday, October 12, 1999 - 06:58 pm:

I've read all of the debate. And I think that the Euros really and truly don't get what the Americans are thinking, and the Americans really don't get what the Euros are thinking. Bob Thomas summarizes some of the differences eloquently, but only some.

The Euros really and truly believe in things like Olympic committees and government-aligned sponsoring bodies, and Peace, Love and Better Living through cooperative allegiance to regulating organizations. Freedom through rational regulation, as a better alternative than anarchy. A belief that rational humans of good will can agree on what constitutes "better" and "worse" in general, and certainly in a dance competition. And that the world will be a better place for it, and that Lindy is a part of the world worth promoting. And even though the organizers say they have no regularizing intentions, still they think that an overarching world-wide consensus on how to do these competition things is a good thing for Lindy. (For example, Marcus Koch wrote, "It is very naive to believe that a free market [can do] everything.... So Lindy Hop needs some organizations." -- a sincere belief that organizations will help, not hurt.)

The Euros see Lindy as another potential part of the only dance scene they know: sports. Big sports, governmentally recognized, sponsored, paid for. The only way to grow a dance, they think, is to promote it, and the way to do that is by adopting the metaphor and mechanisms of their national sports organizations. Maybe that will work in Europe. But in America, it is a recipe for killing any popular movement.

The Americans, with no living memory of the horrors of anarchy, pretend to like anarchy in general ("free market of ideas" and other similar cant), and _actually_ like it in regards to something like Lindy Hop. Lindy, as Steven Mitchell wrote, is a street dance. Born in Harlem and raised in the spirit of jazz. Waltz can survive regulating committees and maybe even benefit from them; but they are anathema to Lindy. Destructive, even. It would be like adding a Jazz Music event to the Olympics -- too wierd for words. The forests in America are wild and organic ... chaotic, sometimes-dangerous, fertile and exquisitely beautiful. The forests in Europe are lots of trees growing in straight lines. The Americans hate the idea of Lindy Hop becoming a European forest, because then it won't be an American forest at all. And Lindy Hop is fundamentally an American dance -- an American-forest kind of dance. We are talking about two utterly different concepts of what a dance is, what its place in society is, and how to keep people liking it.

The Americans see the Lindy as a dance. A folk art. An organic thing that grows itself. It grows by growing, not by being promoted. By people dancing, not by people competing. It is NOT a sport. In America, with the extreme increase branding and commercialization of _everything_ in the past 10 years, Lindy is more likely to be killed than grown by being promoted. There's no such thing as casual Major Competitions any more. If it becomes another dancesport, it will become another one of those things that people think of as being for experts only -- there are The Few Professionals, who do it, and all of the rest of us who watch it on tv once a year. Ballroom dance people have killed what little was left of ballroom dance as a mainstream pleasure for people -- it has become more and more of a freak show and less and less of a part of mainstream culture, the more that its promoters have insisted that it be given Olympic recognition and promotion through competitions. It's a shame; nobody goes out ballroom dancing any more. If your idea of promoting the wonders of Lindy is to kill off all interest in America except among the really hard-core competitor/sports people, then the WLHC and the WRRC make a great approach. But if you want people to love Lindy as a dance that people go out and do, then you don't make it into a competitive organized sport. At least not in America, you don't.

The hearts of the Euros are in the right place in genuinely wanting to increase the number of people who love Lindy. And the idea of free entry to the people on whom the spotlight will be shining at some big Lindy event is a great idea. But their minds are in the wrong place. They simply fail to acknowledge the homogenizing, all-in-a-row effects that centrally organized competitions have had on absolutely every other form of dance that suffers from them.

At least, that's true in America. So perhaps different approaches should be taken in the two regions.

As to this particular event in NYC, let's face it: there is not the slightest good reason in the world for it to be a competition instead of an exhibition.

In this regard, I strongly disagree with Nathalie Gomes and the supporters of a Championship. As Ms. Gomes wrote, "Our sole intention is to promote Swing-Lindy by showcasing the best dancers worldwide via television and other media outlets. All this while keeping with the joyous atmosphere for social dancers." And she sincerely thinks that a Competition is the way to do it. But I think that Competitions and Championships _undermine_ what she is trying to do, except maybe by getting a tiny bit more media coverage, while Exhibitions would succeed. Competitions NEVER keep a joyous atmosphere going!

If it were an exhibition, it would legitimately showcase all the folks that various other folks think are pretty hot stuff. It would be great entertainment. It would be an inspirational eyeful to dancers and would-be dancers everywhere. It could run on television. Entry fees for the performers could still be zero. It would show off and make winners of everyone involved. It would do everything good ... and nothing bad. It would perfectly show off all the great dancing without some tiny committee of judges anointing themselves as The Judges and anointing one couple as The One-And-Only-Winner -- and infuriating the 70 percent of the audience who disagree with them. In keeping with the spirit of Lindy, everyone could have an opinion and no one would have the final say.

My two cents, as we say in American coinage.

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Use this link to go directly to the discussion on the Swingin'Speakeasy:
http://216.22.166.224/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?56/402

"Thanks" from Chicago

From: "Tracy Hogan" TRACYH@IBM.NET
To: "John Tomeny"
Subject: Re: We are a community!
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:25:29

I want to thank you and congratulate for taking on this enormous task. Who knew that it would grown to be so big and, unfortunately so hideous. In any case, you have done a good thing, for those that do read the messages, in allowing us to see the facts, and form our own opinion. I have seen the dance community, many different dance communities in fact, grow to be factions or alliances; spreading rumors, building egos, making threats, and just plain talking bad. This is not why I dance and it is not something I want to be associated with. However, it is to be expected. The swing community has gotten so big. So, again, thank you for documenting the debate and well done.

Tracy Hogan
Chicago, IL

A Reply from Minneapolis to Wendy Jo's Message

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:50:35
To: John Tomeny
From: Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen jo@swinginhepcats.com
Subject: Re: Request for YOUR feedback

this is from a woman in our performance group, she's also a local teacher...

Wendy Jo G.

From: michelle.l.shaw@uwrf.edu
To: Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen jo@swinginhepcats.com,
Roger Becker roger@swinginhepcats.com,
Debby Filler:"TG_KidsCo@hopkins.k12.mn.us" michelle.l.shaw@uwrf.edu;,
"TG_KidsCo@hopkins.k12.mn.us" michelle.l.shaw@uwrf.edu
Subject: Re: Request for YOUR feedback
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 99 04:10:41

Hi! I'm sorry it's taken me so long to respond, but I've been preparing for my big geology exam on Thursday. I think the letter sounds great. I do hope you send it out to all of the people who organize events in our community because I think there are a lot of people who need to know what this "need" for competition is doing to the dance. Instead of being afraid that someone is going to shine more than me, I should look at it in a way that benefits everyone. We should all be supporting one another. The important thing is the dance itself and that's what we should be promoting.

As for the debate and how it affects me? Well, I've been observing it from afar because I don't have time for much else. However, I don't think anyone should feel like they have control over anyone else when it comes to any kind of dance. Is the WLHC threatening to take over the world of Lindy Hop? That's crazy. It's just one aspect of it that people can choose to be a part of.

There is not only discrimination within the world of Lindy Hop, but also in the world of dance. We have Savoy vs. Hollywood Style, East Coast vs. West Coast. Why are we so divided? One who has dancing in his/her heart won't stop at learning just one kind of dance. They will appreciate all of it because it makes them better dancers. I was one of those people who turned her nose up at West Coast and now I can't get enough of it and Hollywood Style. Always learning new things is what helps us appreciate the history and future of the dance.

Those are my thoughts. You can post them if you want. It's just been frustrating seeing so many people competing with one another when it'd be so much more valuable for us to be supportive and encourage new ventures.

Have a great week!
Michelle

Alan Sugarman poses a series of questions answered by Nathlie Gomes and Paulette Brockington

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:13:03 -0400
To: "Yehoodi" news@yehoodi.com, "New Swing List" swinglist@newswing.com,
From: "Alan D. Sugarman" sugarman@hyperlaw.com
Subject: Questions re WLHC and Nathalie G: As from Nathalie Gomes [Long]
Cc: "Nathalie G" ngswing@earthlink.net

In order to bring some focus to the debate about the World Lindy Hop Championships and also to make sure that everyone is operating with the complete facts directly from the organizers, I put together the following questions and submitted the first version to Nathalie a few weeks ago. She Nathalie G: Aed these and then more questions followed.

Following are the Nathalie G: As that Nathalie provided as of October 12, 1999. I have compiled the questions and based on her Nathalie G: As, added a few more questions, 20-26, which she has not seen and I assume will Nathalie G: A and post her Nathalie G: As directly on the net.

ADS Swingout-NY October 13, 1999

***************

QUESTION 1: The rules say that tempos are in the range of 50 to 58, which is 200 to 232 bpm. Did i read that right?

Nathalie: I know it is pretty fast. This speed is only for the final round. The rounds before are slower. I think The rules were set during previous meeting with "Lindy people". There were many discussions about doing a slow and fast round. But apparently only the fast round was approved.

Paulette: It is my understanding that Helena Norbelie and a few other Swedes were consulted about the rules. However the rules Nathalie received were emailed to her by Dominique. So she received the revised set. I however was faxed the original World Lindy Hop Federation Rules because I could not open the document he sent.

QUESTION 2: Who were the people that were on this committee -by name?

Nathalie: I don't know the names. They are the people who were involved from the beginning, creation of the WLH Association. The rules are based on the previous world Lindy hop championships. They were submitted to Paulette Brockington and I for review and finally discussed and voted at the last meeting of the WLH Association in Norway or Stockholm this past summer. This info is to be verified. This is what I know.

Paulette: I don't know whether this is accurate or not. You'll need to check with Dominique. I know the President of the newly created International Lindy Hop Association is Janna Leppala from Finland.-

QUESTION 3: How many of the people on the committe have danced boogie woogie or rock n roll comptetitively?

Nathalie: I don't think this really is an issue of the debate. Why not asking if they have danced jazz, tap or ballroom? They are people who are willing to give their time to make something happen and are totally devoted to it.

Paulette: Virtually all either compete or are certified WRRC judges. And I think it is an important question to ask, because a majority who are having a problem with the rules and the WRRC involvement are those who do neither Boogie woogie or Rock n' Roll.

QUESTION 4: Next, the music. The rules say the music is to be from "the living-music-selection-list". Is that the list on the WRRC with stuff from elton john, the fine young cannibals etc. Or is there a special lindy hop selection?

Nathalie: Absolutely no stuff like Elton John. I should be getting the list soon. It is going to be classic Lindy hop selection. For the finals, the dancers will choose among a few songs. The music will be traditional jazz/swing music as used in the past WLHC.

Paulette: Dancers are only supposed to dance to music that existed during the Swing Era. I told him that in conjunction with some of the other rules made the World seem more like an archive than anything else. Nathalie agreed with me on this.

QUESTION 5: Will the music by swing jazz music or rock-n-roll jump music?

Nathalie: As an organizer it is my responsibility to make sure that the music is appropriate. (jazz swing music)

QUESTION 6: Many students of the lindy hop feel that a dance to non-syncopated rock n roll music by definition cannot be lindy hop. Why should these people not be concerned about a "lindy hop" event that is sanctioned and run by organizations that have as their root, dance (rock n roll and boogie woogie) and music (50s rock and the fine young cannibals) that is inimical to the music that birthed the lindy hop?

Nathalie: They shouldn't be worried because Rock 'n roll is one dance, Boogie another one, and Lindy another one. Each of them uses a specific style of music.

Paulette: That's true. But I have a major concern that they will try to regiment the dance jsut as the have done with BW, R n' R and ballroom dance.

QUESTION 7: For clarification, is the ALHC determining who competes for the United States?

Nathalie: There were 5 qualifications nationwide. The finalist will compete in the American Showcase division which will determine who will represent the USA, at least for this year. Next year the national selection may be different.

Paulette: Simply, yes.

QUESTION 8: How many of the five qualification competitions nationwide followed the WRRC rules?

Nathalie: It was Paulette Brockington responsibility to make sure that the organizers will pick appropriate music, that the judges knew what to judge and that the rules of WLHC were going to be used to ensure fairness of American competitors at the WLHC.

Paulette: Nathalie has no connection with ALHC so she would have no way of knowing. I adapted the World Federation rules. I used the World Swing Dance Council's criteria for judging which are reflected in ALHC's overall rules.

QUESTION 9: What if the ALHC and 5 qualifying competitions are not performed to similar music and similar high tempos?

Nathalie: The organizers of the ALHC have the rules of the WLHC. I asked THAT the American Showcase Division be as close as possible to the WLHC. I hope ALHC will respect this so as to have a good representation of the USA.

Paulette: Couples in the preliminary rounds danced at 180 bpm. Couples in the finals danced at 192 bpm. The finalists had a slow round and a fast round in addition to their solo dance. What I respect is a well rounded couple who can do more than keep up with the beat.

QUESTION 10: If not, how are the winners of the ALHC going to have a fair chance?

Nathalie: That will be THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE ALHC. The WRRC and myself as an organizer can not decide how nationals are internally chosen. Each country has to set its own system of selection. I can only suggest, which I have.

Paulette: Again Nathalie is not the appropriate person to whom you should address this question. At each of the regionals competitors' meetings contestants were told at what tempo they would dance and at what tempo the final round at the WLHC would be. It is up to them to train. Knowing that if the made it to the finals of WLHC that the tempos selected for them to chose from would increase by roughly 20 bpm. The WLHC preliminary round is supposed to be between 180 - 200.

QUESTION 11: At the WLHC, will there be only a single event run by WRRC rules or will there be other event, perhaps with slower music?

Nathalie: A 11. No, there will not be another event. We want this event to also be a social event. So, the rest of the time there will be Live Music, one big band and for the after party a jump blues band. To be confirmed very soon. There will also be performances.

QUESTION 12: Are you, and I hope you are, having other competitions at the championships other that what I would call international style Lindy Hop or Euro-Lindy Hop?

Nathalie: There will not be other competitions. This is one event. Like I said it is not a competition for everyone who comes: it is the World Lindy Hop Championship plus a party. The meeting on Monday will discuss the rules though and as it was discussed previously the slow round issue will be raised and discussed. There is a slow round in Boogie, I am not sure why there isn't one in Lindy. I think part of it has to do with the 40's contests and footage of Lindy where the music was pretty fast.

Paulette: My personal feeling is that the Europeans, particularly the Swedes adore Whitey's Lindy Hoppers. They are archivists this this regard. Most I have talked to use them as the standard. They have nothing in their archive which shows WLH dancing slowly. So the standard is fast music. But the problem with that is that you really only get to view performances and ultimately reproduce them.

QUESTION 13: I would like to see a competition done at 180 bpm to Basie or Ellington where there could be no more than one aerial in every ten 8 count patterns. Rhat rules are there re this?

Nathalie: I agree with you that Lindy cannot be only about aerials. But as we said we don't want to set rules and we want to leave freedom to the dancers. The competitors and the judges hopefully will make the right judgement. For example, in Boogie championships aerials are not forbidden but nobody does them because the dancers know it is not really a characteristic of the dance but also because they know that the judges don't give them more points for that.

QUESTION 14: The rules say that Lindy Hop is an 8 count dance. Will competitors be penalized for doing 10 count patterns, using jazz steps, doing 6 count moves, starting an 8 count pattern on 3?

Nathalie: Absolutely not. it only says that it is based on an 8 count basic. It is just so hard to define Lindy that not defining it too specifically seems the only way.

QUESTION 15: So, who are the judges. How do people know what standard they apply? Does a brilliant difficult dance pattern that runs over the music get zero points or ten points?

Nathalie: The list of judges is posted on my web site: Simon Selmon (UK), Rob VanHaren (USA), Helena Norbelie(Sweden), Paul Grecki (USA), Dominique DeCoster(Belgium), Isabelle Theede (Germany), Michelle Planques (France) Judges will have a meeting on Friday or Saturday to discuss judging issues. Competitors will be informed accordingly.

QUESTION 16: Part of Ryan's statement may have appeared to be a personal attack, but let me put it another way: first, to what extent have the background of the organizers of the NYC WLHC event been influenced by their background as European competitors in Boogie-Woogie and Rock 'n Roll?

Nathalie: Absolutely none. At some point, there were only 2 possible candidates: Paulette or me. Paulette wanted to do it at the ALHC. I offered to do it in NYC. The location sounded more appealing. But I think that the main reason was that, with the way things went, it seemed smarter to divide the tasks and have Paulette organize the American qualification (huge job knowing that the notice was very short) and I organize the world qualification. Paulette was fine with that. In the end anyway, I am the only one who submitted an application.

Paulette: Is id=s not completely accurate. Dominique DeCoster contacted me after the first ALHC. He asked me if I would consider doing the World's. I asked him when. He said in 1999. I said there wasn't enough time. He suggested that I do it as part of ALHC. Emails went back and forth sporadically for some months. I said I would think about it and let him know, becasue in order to accommodate an added competition I would have to find a way to restructure AALHC's schedule. During this time he sent an email post our to several countries announcing the USA as the preferred location for 1999 and England as the preferred location for 2000. I received an email from Nathalie telling me she wanted to work on the World event with me. A later email informed me that she was going to fly to Lausanne for the WRRC meeting to talk about her participation in the event. The meeting was the first week in March. After the meeting I got an email from Nathalie telling me she was going to organize the WLHC and she asked if I would help. I said that I already had enough on my plate and wasn't going to work on an event that was the week after the Lindy Champs. I spoke with Dominique by phone who felt I should help out because it was too much for one person to do alone. But I pointed out to him that that would mean I would have to work on two events at the same time. I was not willing to do that. I did speak with Nathalie by phone a day or two later and offered to arrange a discounted hotel package for those coming to the event. She said she didn't need one.

QUESTION 17: Many American Lindy Hoppers, including Frankie Manning as indicated by his Sony compilation of favorite Lindy Hop selections, feel that ideal Lindy Hop music is jazz based and is in the range of 145-190 bmp. So, how does this square with these tempos that start above this range?

Nathalie: As I mentioned above, it could have been that the choice of fast music came from the old footage. Also, since it is more difficult to dance to faster music it can be seen as a criteria of selection. Finally, "ideal Lindy music" can be understood as ideal for social dancing but maybe not competitive, ideal for what? Maybe the right Nathalie G: A is to have in future competitions, a fast and slow round.

Paulette: Faster music also can cover up techincal errors. Slower music may be harder to dance to because, it points out technical errors and forces the couple to deals more readily with style issues and musicality.

QUESTION 18: And then, to focus on Ryan's observation re the sponsors and organizers, would non-boogie woogie and non-rock and roll organizers ever even dream of holding a "Lindy Hop" competition with these tempos?

Nathalie: Just for your info, rock 'n roll is danced to 48-52 bars/m. Again, I repeat, the people who set the rules are Lindy hoppers who have been working on building the WLH Association for the last five years or so. Rules are not forever, they can be discussed and changed. This is just the beginning of something better.

QUESTION 19: Many students of street dances such as Mambo and Swing find that the international style Latin and Jive competitive styles have little to do with the real dance and the competitive music has little to do with the real music -- do not critics of the WLHC not have a legitimate fear that Lindy Hop may go the way of Jive?

Nathalie: It is true that street dances as mentioned above are different from what is done in the ballroom competitive world. That's why it is up to us to make sure that this doesn't happen. That's why having a worldwide organization with a committee of Lindy Hoppers is important. Otherwise, the "ballroom people" or somebody else will take care of it. The WRRC is making it easier on us by offering it's structure and experience. The WLH associations that were created before (or tried to) didn't work because it is time consuming. It is hard to find people who will commit to do the work for free, etc... The question everyone should ask is how the WRRC can help us and not how it is going to change or not the nature of Lindy. There are already many forms that derived from Lindy, I really don't think we can create that many more.

********************************

NEW QUESTIONS [These were not previously submitted to Nathalie as of October 13, 1999]

NEW QUESTION 20: WHO ARE THE TWENTY FIVE COUPLES WHO WILL BE COMPETING AND FROM WHAT COUNTRIES DO THEY COME?

Paulette: 5 are from the USA, 5 are from Sweden, 4 are supposed to come from England - but there are having well documented problems with the WRRC imposed selection process. The other countries eligible to send 4 couples include Germany, Switzerland, Finland, Norway, Belgium and Denmark. None though is sending 4. Belgium's top three couples were supposed to come, but two of them are ineligible due to their age. And it is my understanding that France and Spain declined to participate. I think 5 couples is too many from any one country. Prior comps had the majority of the contestants coming from Sweden. The last championship country and the host country are entitled to a wild card slot. Which Idon't agree with either. ¯

NEW QUESTION 21: WHICH OF THESE COUPLES HAVE ALSO COMPETED IN BOOGIE WOOGIE OR ROCK N ROLL?

Paulette: Well, Marcus is representing Germany. Stephan Joller and Erika Schriber I think from Switzerland. And the Belgians. There are likely others, but I haven't seen a list of competitors yet.

NEW QUESTION 22: MARCUS SAYS THAT THE EUROPEAN FEDERATIONS ARE GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED AND RECEIVE GOVERNMENT SUPPORT. DOES THAT MEAN THAT THE EUROPEAN COMPETITORS ARE HAVING THEIR TRAVEL SUBSIDIZED BY THEIR EUROPEAN FEDERATION AND THAT DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY THE GOVERNMENTS ARE PAYING THEIR EXPENSES?

Paulette: Most of the countries' couples are subsidized by their governments, associations or sponsors.

NEW QUESTION 23: WHAT INVOLVEMENT DOES THE AMERICAN LINDY HOP CHAMPIONSHIP HAVE IN THIS EVENT? ARE WINNER OF THE ALHC HAVING THEIR EXPENSES TO THE CHAMPIONSHIP PAID? WHAT IS THE PRESENT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE ALHC AND THE WLHC.

Paulette: ALHC's American Showcase Division's top five winners are eligible to move on to WLHC. Nathalie is hosting the event so how the competitors get there and where they stay is her bailiwick to cover. I do know that she is providing hosts for the competitors to stay with. And both she and Dominique where working on an airline sponsor.

NEW QUESTION 24: IT SEEMS THAT SOME DANCERS FROM THE UNITED STATES AND ENGLAND BELIEVE THAT IF EACH COUNTRY GETS ONE VOTE, THEN THE US AND ENGLISH VIEWS WILL ALWAYS BE OUTVOTED AND THUS THERE IS NO REASON TO PARTICIPATE IN ANY INTERNATIONAL LINDY HOP FEDERATION. GIVEN THAT NUMERICALLY PROBABLY 95% OF ALL LINDY HOP DANCER WORLD WIDE ARE ENGLISH OR US, IS THIS FAIR AND WHY SHOULD PEOPLE GET INOLVED IN SOMETHING WHERE THEIR VOTES WILL NEVER COUNT.

Paulette: This is exactly the point I tried to make to Marcus and copied to WRRC reps. This is the reason we had the American Revolution. We must have an equal say in our determination. After the fact is not enough. The comments and questions I have had about WRRC and the WLHC rules are to be addressed at the February meeting in Stockholm and I am more than welcome to attend.

NEW QUESTION 25 : WHAT ARE THE REASONS FOR NOT REDUCING THE TEMPO FOR THIS COMPETITION?

Paulette: Dominique these issues should be addressed at the meeting in Stockholm. I don't think they are concerned about it because those that voted it in place are happy with it. And Europeans are more laid back about waiting. Americans are not.

NEW QUESTION 26: THE EVENT IS ONLY THREE WEEKS AWAY - WHAT IS THE MUSIC THAT WILL BE PLAYED?

A Perspective from Bill "LindyBill" Millan

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 07:52:51
From: Bill Millan LindyBill@home.com
To:
Subject: competition, would you post this please?

Hello, everyone, I am a swing dancer in LA

It is my understanding that the top professionals in the Lindy Hop World discussed the question of Organizing at Herrang in the summer of 1997.

The outcome was to not organize. As a result, some of the Lindy Hop Teachers, and promoters, started an organization on their own, and have affiliated with the European Rock and Roll group to promote a National and World competition. This has caused other Teachers, who did not want to organize, to oppose their actions.

There is going to be some organization running local, national, and World Lindy Hop competitions. That, to me, is a forgone conclusion.

Dancers want to compete. Teachers need the competition to get more students involved in Lindy Hop. The Teachers need to be able to make a living. The dancers want to see more people involved in dancing Lindy Hop, so that there are more people to dance with, and more places to dance.

This organization must be professional, well run, and make a profit so that it can continue year after year. Anything less will be episodic and collapse. It is going to have to affiliate, like it or not, with the British Ballroom Organization.

The reason it is going to have to affiliate is the Olympics. I do not believe that the Olympic committee is going to deal with anyone else but the British Ballroom Organization. As I understand it, Dance will be a demonstration sport in 2000, an approved sport in 2004, and Lindy Hop could be on the program.

If the top professional dancers get together in Herrang next summer and form a professional organization, and affiliate with The British Ballroom people, they will be able to control this procedure. If they don't, someone else will do it and control it.

You stand on the Podium.
A Medal is place around your neck.
Your National Anthem is played.
You watch your Flag being raised.

Hey, I would like my grand daughter to be able to have a shot at that. And everyone else's, too.

LindyBill

LindyBill@home.com

Paolo Lanna shares his "Thoughts about WLHC"

Date: Friday October 15, 1999
From: Paolo Lanna Lindyland@aol.com
Subject: Thoughts about WLHC
To Lindy Hoppers around the Globe,

For those of you who don't know me, I'll say simply that I am a teacher of dance here in New York City and I enjoy spreading the good will of the Lindy Hop.

The upcoming event being billed as "The World Lindy Hop Championships" has created quite a stir. And due to the recent remarks by the most highly regarded Lindy Hop dancers in the World, Ryan Francois and Steven Mitchell, I would like to respond with the following;

As I originally was intrigued and sincerely interested in the idea of a World Lindy Hop Organization, (myself envisioning a governing body whose mission would be to unify the world of Lindy Hop and through the medium of competitions and performances, showcasing the best dancers globally), perhaps I was a bit naive. What I see happening is a far cry from unifying the Lindy community. It is clear that the self proclaimed "World Lindy Hop Championships" planned for NYC is not earning high points from the core Lindy Hoppers respected locally and internationally.

Perhaps it is because many have been offended by the World Rock and Roll Federation, as the umbrella organization. Or, the idea of creating universal rules and regulations and formulating standards is distasteful. Or, the fear of underlying motives. Or, the past and present attitudes and conduct of the organizers, themselves. Or, perhaps it is the process, or lack thereof, by which the organizer was selected in the first place.

Nonetheless, here is an organization trying to capitalize on the swing trend, and profit. Should we and do we have the right to thwart such an attempt? Should we be so judgemental? The simple truth is, capitalism is the American way, isn't it. But here stands the problem;

When one places a title of such enormity and finality on an event, one is bound to come against a wall of opposition, for with such labeling may come power and control and authorization without representation. Also when one takes on such an authoritative roll, one immediately opens him/herself to scrutiny by those who are established within the field, questioning everything from motives to objectivity. And that should have been expected. And why not, for these dedicated and established few surely would want to see this dance represented in it's finest form and as a world class event.

Receiving council of, or creating a council of the core Lindy Hoppers globally should not have been optional, but a most desired goal here, and one for which the promoter/s of the WLHC should be held accountable. It is clear to me that any event labeled as "The World Lindy Hop Championships" must be able to win the respect of these individuals in order to be accepted worldwide as the standard. It also occurs to me that any organization planning an event with a title of such enormity would want to achieve such status.

By possessing the qualities that unify, represent and empower a Lindy Hop community, perhaps one could have overcome these hurdles. Still, events of such prominence are not born overnight.

Yes, it is troubling that this could not have been more welcomed, after all, it's great entertainment, another opportunity for social interaction and expression and that's whether you support and enjoy competitions or not. Without a doubt, it is the name "World Lindy Hop Championships" that is the focus of this controversy. And I am still surprised at the arrogance regarding this issue on the part of the promoters.

Maybe the doors should be open at this point for anyone to throw a dance competition with any grand title like The World Lindy Hop Invitationals or The International Swing Dance Open. Look out for the up and coming championships where Lindy Hoppers will be competing for the prestigious title "Globehopping Lindy Grand Master" at the Global Lindy Championships coming soon to a city near you. Perhaps as soon as Nov. 7th.

That's all,

Paolo "Pasta" Lanna

Simon Selmon enters the WLHC as a competitor

Date: Friday October 15, 1999
From: Nathalie Gomes ngswing@earthlink.net
Subject: Simon Selmon competes in WLHC

Simon Selmon decided to change his mind and he is now competing with his partner Kate Keller in the 1999 World Lindy Hop Championship instead of judging. We will have another judge from England replace him.

Good luck Simon and Kate
Nathalie
www.hopswingjump.com

Below is Simon's request:

On behalf of Kate Keller and myself, I would like to apply to compete in the Lindy Hop Championships, and have enclosed a short C.V. below:

Simon Selmon began Lindy hopping in 1986 and is one of the most highly sought after dancers, teachers, choreographers and performers in the world of Lindy Hop, with numerous film, television and featured media appearances to his credit.

He is the founder and driving force behind the London Swing Dance Society. He recently choreographed and appeared in the feature film "Swing," and has just completed choreography for a new supper club, (themed around the Cotton Club) which has just opened in London at the famous Embassy Rooms. Simon is well known around the world as a great personality to liven up any dance event, and is particularly known for his steamy blues dancing!!!

Kate Keller, originally from San Diego, is currently working with Simon in London and in the last six months has taught with him at major international camps in Sweden, Germany, France and Washington. She is a member of his performance troupe the Sugarfoot Stompers and has also appeared in several T.V. shows as a featured jitterbug. She has been dancing since the age of three and since she started Lindy Hop, her enthusiasm and energy have captured the essence of the dance.

Kind Regards,
Simon Selmon

Nathalie Announces Competitors from 13 Countries

From: "Nathalie G" ngswing@earthlink.net
To: Undisclosed Recipients
Subject: countries at the WLHC
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 18:19:46

Hello everyone,

This is to announce that for the first time in the World Lindy Hop Championship, there will be 13 countries with a total of 26 couples: Ê Belgium Croatia Estonia Finland France Germany Hungary Lithuania Norway Sweden Switzerland UK USA Ê We are very surprised and honored to have such a variety of couples coming that far.Ê Don't miss this unique event, it is the first time it happens in the USA and it won't happen on our soil anytime soon. TV AND MEDIA WILL BE PRESENT, DRESS TO IMPRESS !!! Ê 12 hours of performance and social dancing special guest Jean Veloz from Los Angeles (Groovie Movie, Swing Fever) 2 Live bands (17 piece big band for the evening part and Jive Aces for the after party) Ê The World Lindy Hop Championship Sunday, November 7 1999 2pm-3am The Supper Club 240 West 47th street NYC Tickets are $60 before Nov. 1 (available at the Supper Club and Hop Swing & A Jump) After, $75 $55 only at selected dance studios: Hop Swing & A Jump, Sandra Cameron Dance Center (Angie), Shall We Dance. Ê Also don't forget our Crazy Feet Swing Dance Camp with world reknown instructors including Erik and Sylvia from L.A., Roman Labutin from Russia, Edie and Eva from Sweden, etc... (Nov.1-Nov. 7) Ê For any info, call Hop Swing & A Jump at 212-343-8515 or check www.hopswingjump.com

Marcus Answers some of Alan's Questions

From: "Marcus Koch" MarcusKoch@WorldOfSwing.com
To: "John Tomeny"
Subject: Contribution to Alan's questions
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:19:12

Hi John,

I read the questions from Alan Sugarman on the debate site and I first want to thank Alan for this very good approach. I also would like to contribute some information:

QUESTION 2:

There have been several open meetings (everybody who was interested could come) in the past since 1995, which were discussing rules for international competitions. There were open meetings after every World Championship and also in Herrang for the last three years. I don't have a list of participants because I attended only a couple of them. At the ones I have been there were around 25 people from different countries including America.

Nathalie pointed out very clear: Rules are not forever; they can be discussed and changed. This is just the beginning of something better. To understand why these rules were like this you have to think back three or four years. Lindy was very small in the States. The big country was Sweden, which had Lindy competitions for many years. Quite some of the top Lindy trainers at this time came out of the Swedish competition scene. Like Nathalie said the aim was set by the footage you can see from the old days. Unfortunately there is very little footage of people dancing socially to slower music. Most clips (Hellzapoppin', Cotton Tail, A Day At The Races, Killer Diller, the Kangaroos, later Harvest Moon Ball clips, etc.) are all performed to very fast music. Frankie also told me the music became faster in the later years. Also Jams often are happening when the music gets faster. And Frankie also said that the competitions in contests or in Jam circles were a big driving force for the development of the Lindy. Every week you had to create a new step, because it was copied just right away.

The Lindy scene has changed a lot in the last years and it is different in every city. So maybe rules have to be considered for changes, too. This can be done. I personally would like to see some changes, too, but I'm only one. So come to the meeting after the WLHC.

QUESTION 21:

There will be four couples representing Germany. They all competed in at least one of the former Lindy Championships or other events, e.g. in the Swing Masters Jam in UK.

QUESTION 22:

Who is paying depends very much on the country and the city you are living in. There are different levels of support. At some countries the national body or sponsors are subsidising the costs. At others it is the local club or the States body. Sometimes even the cities pay for travel expenses to international competitions. How much and what varies and depends also on the health of the city or the organisation. So in worst case it can happen that nobody pays for it. Normally it is the aim of the bodies to subsidize the costs, so that the best couples and not only the couples that can afford it can go.

QUESTION 24:

If you look at the last years in Lindy history, you can see how fast things are changing. A couple of years ago Sweden was the big Lindy country and in the States there were only a handful of enthusiasts. Now America is big in Lindy, but you already can see in the major US cities that the number of Lindy dancers is declining; unfortunately many clubs closed already and many are shortly before. Maybe the craze hits another country soon. If you don't have an equal voting for every country this would mean that every couple of years another country can rule everything, just where the most dancers are. But the experience of people shouldn't be less worth, just because the number of dancers has declined. Like the experience of Sweden is still there and important independently of the number of dancers.

I think an international board is not for getting one countries opinion through. Every country has different and valuable experience. So decisions should be made together and not against each other. I know that the other countries are very much open and welcome the experience of the US and the UK. Unfortunately I have the feeling that it is much harder to get the different groups inside the UK to agree than the different countries. I hope I'm wrong.

Yours Marcus

Nathalie Redirects...

From: "Nathalie G" ngswing@earthlink.net
To: "John Tomeny"
Subject: Re: WLHC debate: questions from Alan Sugarman answered...
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:38:51

I must say that some answers by Paulette gave out wrong information or wrong impression. here are some of the corrections, I would like to make.

1. She never offered me a hotel package of any kind. It is impossible for the Marathon week-end to get any deal in NYC unless you do it 2 years in advance.

Question 22: None of the dancers have their trip paid for. It comes out of their own pocket. Some people are unemployed and are raising money to make this competition. People coming from countries like Croatia and Lithuania look at this trip as a HUGE expense. By letting them compete for free (rules of the WRRC) and offering them free lodging, we are making it easier for them financially. Which competition in the USA makes it easier for people like that to compete? With the current system of swing dance competitions in the USA, this would have never been possible for them.

3. I already sent the list of the countries. There are 13 countries. The USA will have 5 couples, 4 for Germany and 3 for England, after that most of them have only 1 or 2. By the way, France and Spain never declined to participate. France is participating and Spain has no Lindy couple as far as I know.

4. I still don't have the list of the music and it won't be announced before the competition anyway. The competition is about improve so the music can't be announced.

5. Regarding the # of votes, just like at the UN, every country gets one voice. I am not going to get into politics, but the WRRC works as a democratic system, one voice/country. As far as I know, in the USA there are no more than one governor/state even though certain states have a much larger population. The USA has many social dancers, I don't know if many of them are interested in competing to that level, especially now with that entire debate. Germany or Sweden have more competitors right now than the USA or the UK, but that doesn't mean that they are getting an extra vote for that.

A lot of people are misinformed and don't understand where the WRRC comes from. I would like to help Dominique present it at the ALHC.

Nathalie

An Apology from Joe Gerrits
Ed: The message that Joe refers to in this public apology was removed from the public archive on Friday, September 24 at Joe's request.

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:29:17
From: Hep Cat Swing info@hepcatswing.com
To: John Tomeny
CC: MarcusKoch@WorldOfSwing.com, MrZoots@aol.com, Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen jo@swinginhepcats.com
Subject: Message from Joe Gerrits

Dear Marcus, Ryan and to all concerning parties:

(Sorry this too long to send a second letter)

Ryan's open outcry for a public boycott of the World Lindy Hop Championships governed by the World Rock & Roll Federation came at opportunistic time for me speak. As a promoter of some of the largest Swing events in the Midwest, I am subjected to enough migraine inducing politics on the local scene that it was much to my surprise to see such political turmoil existing on an International level and it infuriated me.

I must admit I spoke in haste. In doing so, I made accusations towards and organization and about a few people, particularly Marcus Koch, without analyzing the content of the material being passed at the time of my statement. Nor did I wait for further information to be revealed to enlighten me or anyone else concerned about the genetic make-up of the Ryan's angered statements to form a better opinion on the matter. Looking back in hindsight I must stand out and "apologize" for any wrongful accusations towards you personally Marcus Koch.

It did appear that I backed Ryan Francois without hesitation, as most friends would, but I should've waited to hear from other people. On the other hand, I still support Ryan's crusade to protect this dance that he, as everyone else who promotes Swing with such passion, is obdurate about preserving. Even though my statement seemed apparent that I was defending Ryan whole-heartedly, I was actually trying to direct my opinion on what he was saying about protecting the dance.

When Ryan was in Chicago in January 1999, he spoke out against Nazi swing, the commercialism of a non-commercialized dance. It destroys the authenticity and spurs people to learn how to do GAP Swing which then in turn makes our work harder by trying to fix everything that was taught wrong. I agree with him here as well. I think there are more bad instructors than there are good instructors and this should, if possible, be controlled. Definitely not in the manner of standardizing movements that Ryan opposes, but more in the lines that an instructor should have some type of qualification to teach--much like the National Academy of Sports Medicine (NASM) certifies personal trainers for private health training. No one should standardize the steps but someone should stand up and make sure that people are qualified to teach and are, in fact, teaching Lindy Hop right.

The more popular swing gets the more dance instructors are popping out of the wood work with no real training. In a recent Chicago magazine article, Howard Bregman of Swing-Out Chicago said that when he first arrived in Chicago from Los Angeles three years ago, he called every dance studio in the city and suburbs to see if they were teaching the Lindy Hop. Every single one of them gave them the same response: "What's Lindy Hop?" Now, everyone is teaching it. I get so many students from a certain dance school that taught them the Lindy Hop and my first few hours with them is trying to explain to them why they are do this wrong, why they are doing that wrong. When Ryan teaches it is such a joy because he'll demonstrate something and subsequently teach the maneuver by finishing with, "you'll do this step this way because it makes sense."

When Ryan spoke out against you Marcus, I asked around and no one from Chicago knew anything about you. So I put my opinion in words and it was displayed for all to see. In light of what I wrote, some people came to your defense explaining who you are. But giving the simple fact that they were exposed what you've done and seen you dance, they were absolutely in the right in defending your honor and I was wrong in questioning it without knowing you. I hope you accept my apology.

I hope things work out between everyone for the well being the state of Swing, which seems to be, in a state of downward spiral of non-existence.

Sincerely,

Joe Gerrits